the Fly Clone Project

Hello all,
I'm the proud owner of a 2003 Mojo, my first Parker Fly. I've done my best to spare you all from my questions, but I'm a bit stuck and hoping you might be able to help me out.

My first question is related to the vibrato setup... I've watched the video and read through the guide here, which all makes perfect sense. My issue is that with a 2022 NOS 9 spring installed, and 009 strings on the guitar, I have to be backed out to almost nothing on the tension wheel for it to balance out while tuned to E standard.

I'd like to down tune a full step, and there's just no way to balance out the bridge with the current spring / string combo I'm using.

I've tried changing the position of the spring on the three-ridge spring plate... currently I'm on the bottom most ridge, while looking at the back of the guitar. If I use the middle or top ridge, I can no longer balance the bridge.

What would you suggest... heavier gauge strings than 009's even though I'm using a #9 spring (maybe the spring is under-rated)?

My other question is regarding string buzzing while I'm tuned down. I've slightly adjusted the action, but was surprised that it felt pretty hard to turn the screws counter-clockwise to raise the bridge. Will I hit "a wall" when I reach the end of these screws' travel, or should I be cautious not to go much further?

Thank you in advance!

Hi @DownRight—and happy to hear that you’re happy with your Mojo!

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm My issue is that with a 2022 NOS 9 spring installed, and 009 strings on the guitar, I have to be backed out to almost nothing on the tension wheel for it to balance out while tuned to E standard.

In short, the spring you have is not behaving as it should. What you’re trying to do in E standard ought to work with a a spring that is functioning properly. Do you have another spring by any chance?

Unfortunately, I do not. I have a 10 on order, but it's looking like I might need another 9 as well.

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:30 pm Hi @DownRight—and happy to hear that you’re happy with your Mojo!

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm My issue is that with a 2022 NOS 9 spring installed, and 009 strings on the guitar, I have to be backed out to almost nothing on the tension wheel for it to balance out while tuned to E standard.

In short, the spring you have is not behaving as it should. What you’re trying to do in E standard ought to work with a a spring that is functioning properly. Do you have another spring by any chance?

I was able to get ahold of the seller before my #10 spring shipped, and he's going to swap it out with another #9 for me. It'll be interesting to compare the two when it arrives. I'll post some updates here when it does.

By any chance do you have any thoughts on my questions regarding the action adjustment? Thank you again!

@DownRight, would you be willing to post any photos of the trem from different angles, and from the cavity side with the cover removed? Your post seems to be saying that the "9"-rated spring is so stiff that the tension wheel must be completely loosened in order for the tension of a 9-42 set of strings to counterbalance the spring enough for the trem to be level and engage with the step-stop (with the spring additionally on the ridge closest to the top of the guitar)?

Being as you haven't mentioned the step-stop (essential for spring tension calibration): How is it working for you? The trem is considered to be level (or at "zero") when the spring tension is adjusted just taught enough to pull the trem stop plate into contact with the engaged step-stop, so that the trem cannot be pulled up in pitch using the bar. When the step stop is disengaged, there should be no change in string tension/pitch or the angle of the trem. If indeed the problem is the spring being much stiffer than its tension rating, It is only once/if this calibration can be achieved that we can begin isolating the tension rating of the spring itself as the source of the problem.

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm I'd like to down tune a full step, and there's just no way to balance out the bridge with the current spring / string combo I'm using.

As in, the spring is so stiff that tuning a 9-42 set down to D standard causes the trem to angle backward severely?

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm What would you suggest... heavier gauge strings than 009's even though I'm using a #9 spring (maybe the spring is under-rated)?

I'd recommend going up a gauge for D standard, in any case. Note that, while a 10-46 set will fit in the nut slots, you can expect some binding there when you use the trem until the slots either "break in" from use or you file the nut slots slightly wider beforehand.

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm I've slightly adjusted the action, but was surprised that it felt pretty hard to turn the screws counter-clockwise to raise the bridge. Will I hit "a wall" when I reach the end of these screws' travel, or should I be cautious not to go much further?

Reading this made me wonder if you have the spring "wedged" against the trem spring ridge plate (When you're wearing the guitar, is the spring ridge being used the one closest to you, or closest to the front of the guitar)? The Fly trem design means that, unless the bridge height adjustment screws are corroded (or their threads otherwise affected) or under an additional source of tension, height adjustments under string tension should be easier to perform than with other bridge designs. Photos will help confirm or rule out whether the bridge posts themselves are leaning or otherwise being angled enough to affect the height screw adjustment.

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm I've done my best to spare you all from my questions

By all means, ask any question that may occur to you (Speaking for myself, that's what this site exists for - For all I know, VJ's just been too polite to tell us that it was supposed to be about cloning literal flies). Any question that can be answered helps to make this site a better tech resource; and the next owner with your specific issue will be able to reference this thread. Details beget precision and efficiency; and I'd love for others to see a problem and either point or be pointed to a particular thread, addressing that particular problem, in a way that manages to help someone (or at least spare them unnecessary disappointment).

@mmmguitar Absolutely happy to post some pictures. And thank you for reaching out... I very much appreciate your help!

Your post seems to be saying that the "9"-rated spring is so stiff that the tension wheel must be completely loosened in order for the tension of a 9-42 set of strings to counterbalance the spring enough for the trem to be level and engage with the step-stop (with the spring additionally on the ridge closest to the top of the guitar)?

What I'm experiencing is, the 9-rated spring is so stiff that to achieve a floating bridge with a set of 9-42 strings (where the guitar is in tune with the step-stop up or down), I can only barely engage the tension wheel. It's essentially what I'd expect to experience if I was using a 10-rated spring with a set of 9-42's.

Being as you haven't mentioned the step-stop (essential for spring tension calibration): How is it working for you? The trem is considered to be level (or at "zero") when the spring tension is adjusted just taught enough to pull the trem stop plate into contact with the engaged step-stop, so that the trem cannot be pulled up in pitch using the bar. When the step stop is disengaged, there should be no change in string tension/pitch or the angle of the trem. If indeed the problem is the spring being much stiffer than its tension rating, It is only once/if this calibration can be achieved that we can begin isolating the tension rating of the spring itself as the source of the problem.

Sorry, yes, that's my goal... to balance the tension of the spring / strings so I can float the bridge properly with the step-stop in the up position.

As in, the spring is so stiff that tuning a 9-42 set down to D standard causes the trem to angle backward severely?

No, the issue I'm having here is that I'm unable to float the bridge if I tune down to D standard, as any amount of tension is detuning with the step-stop up.

I'd recommend going up a gauge for D standard, in any case. Note that, while a 10-46 set will fit in the nut slots, you can expect some binding there when you use the trem until the slots either "break in" from use or you file the nut slots slightly wider beforehand.

It makes sense that this is the solution here while tuned down. Truthfully, I've tried my best to avoid heavier strings, as I recently had surgery on my right shoulder, and have been battling tendonitis in my left elbow (awesome combo for a guitarist). I have some NYXL 10-46's on order though, and will give them a shot when they arrive. Thank you for the note about the slots needing to break in too... not something I had taken into consideration yet. I'd definitely rather not have to file them if I can avoid doing so.

Reading this made me wonder if you have the spring "wedged" against the trem spring ridge plate (When you're wearing the guitar, is the spring ridge being used the one closest to you, or closest to the front of the guitar)?

I don't think that's the case. I've completely removed the spring a couple times now. I've tried each of the three grooves on the three-ridge spring plate, and checked the marking on the opposite side to ensure it's marked as a 9 rated spring (it is). Currently the ridge being used is the one that would be closest to the front of the guitar.

The Fly trem design means that, unless the bridge height adjustment screws are corroded (or their threads otherwise affected) or under an additional source of tension, height adjustments under string tension should be easier to perform than with other bridge designs. Photos will help confirm or rule out whether the bridge posts themselves are leaning or otherwise being angled enough to affect the height screw adjustment.

When I was adjusting the action screws, I was definitely trying to be cautious in doing so, but I wonder if I'm nearing the end of the adjustment. I wonder if you're right about there possibly being some corrosion on them, and maybe that's where the resistance was coming from. I'm curious what would happen if I went "too far" though... Would that side of the action become completely free from the body, or is there something preventing that (the "wall" I questioned previously).

By all means, ask any question that may occur to you

Thank you, I really appreciate that. You guys have put together an excellent resource here, and I always like to do my best to search for my own answers whenever possible. It's due to the FAQs here that I was able to understand how the process of setting up the trem in the first place

Here are a couple pictures:

The first images show the tension balanced as desired to achieve a floating bridge with a set of 9-42 strings installed, and tuned to E standard. The second (for reference) show the tension wheel backed off, just to the point where there is no longer any additional tension on the spring. This is not even 1/4 of a turn from the previous images.

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm My issue is that with a 2022 NOS 9 spring installed, and 009 strings on the guitar, I have to be backed out to almost nothing on the tension wheel for it to balance out while tuned to E standard.

Did you buy this spring on Reverb from “Billy’s Shop”? And was that how it was described in the listing (2022 NOS)? I’ve had some questions about those springs relative to some of the findings our team discovered about USM-era springs, and I’d like to run some tests on that spring you have. I can trade you a 9 spring from my collection for yours if you’re willing to give it to me (the one you currently have would ultimately be destroyed). Please DM me if so, but please don’t feel obligated to do so.

Thanks for the photos, @DownRight (And a big thank you to VJ for the trade offer).

If you keep raising the bridge height by turning the adjustment screws in the rear of the guitar counterclockwise, the posts for the trem will eventually decouple from the ends of the height adjustment screws (this is how you remove the bridge from the guitar).

When you have the spring out of the guitar, and there's minimal string tension pulling on the trem, can the tension wheel and bridge height screw adjustments be made smoothly?

If there is still resistance or rough spots encountered in the course of adjusting those parts under minimal external tension, I would suspect corrosion or scratches to the threads on the screws and spring tension wheel cylinder as the cause. WD-40 and some grease might do the trick for the former - But if the threads themselves are scratched or otherwise damaged, I'd just replace those parts.

In the event those parts turn smoothly under minimal tension, then that may suggest we've narrowed the issue down to your spring being so stiff as to essentially be acting as a trem block. I suspect this is why the effect is mitigated by your shortening the length of the "block" through angling the spring to seat in the plate ridge closest to the guitar's top: In a "normal" setup, the spring ridge placement should only affect the resistance felt when compressing the spring by pushing the bar down in a divebomb - Its orientation shouldn't be necessary to getting the trem to float; as the tension wheel adjustment compensates for that in its compression of the spring (in instances where the spring is able to be compressed enough to counterbalance the tension exerted by the strings).

I've personally never encountered this issue - So I can't suggest anything more beyond waiting for a replacement 9 spring to arrive. If it ends up solving all the described problems, then I would believe we have questions raised by this NOS spring which would be best answered by VJ and his colleagues.

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 12:14 pm

DownRight wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:16 pm My issue is that with a 2022 NOS 9 spring installed, and 009 strings on the guitar, I have to be backed out to almost nothing on the tension wheel for it to balance out while tuned to E standard.

Did you buy this spring on Reverb from “Billy’s Shop”? And was that how it was described in the listing (2022 NOS)? I’ve had some questions about those springs relative to some of the findings our team discovered about USM-era springs, and I’d like to run some tests on that spring you have. I can trade you a 9 spring from my collection for yours if you’re willing to give it to me (the one you currently have would ultimately be destroyed). Please DM me if so, but please don’t feel obligated to do so.

The spring that is currently installed was purchased from Billy's Shop on Reverb by the previous owner of my guitar shortly after he acquired it earlier in the year, as you suspected. On the underside it is indeed marked "9 2022"

The new one I have on order is also from Billy's Shop and has the same markings in the listing.

I'd love to take you up on your offer. I'll send you a DM shortly with some additional info.

@mmmguitar

Thank you for the info... Later today when work dies down, I'll plan to remove the tension from the strings and spring, and attempt to back out the action screws completely. I'll report back either way with my findings, but will take your WD-40 advice if it turns out to be corrosion related.

Interesting regarding the spring's position on the three-ridge spring plate. I figured this was related more to the tension on the spring than the feel. Though admittedly I haven't searched much on this topic, I did do a little looking around for more info related to this and struck out.

DownRight wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:02 pm I did do a little looking around for more info related to this and struck out.

You’re in good company. I have one of my Flys disassembled for a separate project; and will try to come up with something owners and techs can reference which better illustrates some of the less intuitive or obvious quirks of the trem design.

DownRight wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:02 pm Interesting regarding the spring's position on the three-ridge spring plate. I figured this was related more to the tension on the spring than the feel. Though admittedly I haven't searched much on this topic, I did do a little looking around for more info related to this and struck out.

With this design, the amount of force that the spring uses to push back on the bridge (adjusted by the player via the wheel) in terms of getting the bridge to balance properly is the same amount in all three positions. The spring will always be countering the force from the strings that are pulling the bridge forward. The angle of the spring in the three slots, however, does change the amount of force required to tilt the bridge, which, as you noted, is translated to the player as “feel”.

#VibratoBridge

Ah that makes sense... thank you

@vjmanzo @mmmguitar
I just thought I'd share with you guys what the spring (NOS 9 2022) & tension knob look like after balancing a set of NYXL 10-46's tuned to E standard.

I'm guessing this is closer to what you'd expect to see with a set of 9-42's?

I'll have the new spring tomorrow and will see how it compares.

You got me thinking, a couple of months ago I bought two of these (NOS 2022 9s gauge) from the same reverb store.

I haven't tried any of these as I bought them as backup.

The original 9's gauge springs my Flys came with are perfect for 10-38s in standard D, I can balance the bridges no problem but I usually flush the bridges anyway as I bend a lot while playing adjacent strings so, for my playing style a flushed bridge (with just enough tension so no other strings go flat when I do a big bend, I still need the bridge to be able to bend down) is perfect .

I wonder if the ones I bought are kinda wrong...

Hmmmmmmmm....

Jupiter wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 1:50 am You got me thinking, a couple of months ago I bought two of these (NOS 2022 9s gauge) from the same reverb store.

I haven't tried any of these as I bought them as backup.

The original 9's gauge springs my Flys came with are perfect for 10-38s in standard D, I can balance the bridges no problem but I usually flush the bridges anyway as I bend a lot while playing adjacent strings so, for my playing style a flushed bridge (with just enough tension so no other strings go flat when I do a big bend, I still need the bridge to be able to bend down) is perfect .

I wonder if the ones I bought are kinda wrong...

Hmmmmmmmm....

Hi @Jupiter
I received my 2nd spring from the same store over the weekend. This one is marked "9 | 2023", and it seems to be nearly identical to the "9 | 2022" spring other having a slightly different color to the metal. I also checked the thickness with a set of calipers, and could not spot a difference.
I have found that 10-46 strings tuned to D standard are very similar to a set of 9-42's tuned to E standard in how much spring tension is required to float the bridge, and is achievable with these springs, but with minimal adjustment available on the long tension screw before backing it completely away from the body.

I haven't tried switching back to a set of 9-42's with the new spring yet, but I'm guessing the results will be nearly identical to what they were with the 2022 spring.

For science, I did tune both the old and new springs to E standard with the set of D'Addario NYXL 10-46's installed. Here's a picture showing the comparison.
I'd be really interested to see if you get similar results with your springs, if you get a chance to swap yours out.

@DownRight , I was wrong, both mine are marked "2023".
But according to your findings, I guess it doesn't matter...

All my guitats are on 10-38s, Standard D tuning. I had done my homework so I knew that 90% the 9s gauge would be fine since the total tension of a 9-42 gauge set tuned in standard E, is very close to the total tension of a 10-38 gauge set, tuned in standard D. Actually from what I remember, the 10-38/standard d combo has 10% less tension (don't quote me on that, my memory is BS and I can't find my string tension excel file, lol).

In my case, stiffer won't be much of a problem since I always set my bridges to bend down only (regardless of the guitar).

Now, since I am a mega chicken (and I've written this several times in this forum, lol) , I don't thing I'll swap springs anytime soon...I've never done it before (Fly owner since May here), I don't want to mess around with my Flys unless there is a very serious reason.

Photos of my Classic and Deluxe, 10-38s, original 9's gauge springs, standard d, bridge set for bend down only.
Yours truly,

The Mega-Chicken

PS: if I didn't live in the EU, I would gladly send one of these to @vjmanzo to measure it, test it, try it out etc.