the Fly Clone Project

Background:
I got a late 90's purple Fly around 7 months ago, and of course I love it.
I traded in a Nitefly to get it.
When I went to pick it up, the piezo didn't work. Stereo cable, good battery, etc. all things were checked.
I came back twice and eventually they got it all to work right. They didn't say exactly what they fixed.

All was good for 7 months. Flick the pickup selector and piezo sound comes on. Sounds great!

A couple of weeks ago, NO PIEZO. I only get the magnetic pickups if I hit the stereo/mono button on the end of the guitar.


Any ideas?
Is it a bad input jack? Bad Stereo Mono switch?

I opened up the back and it doesn't look like anyone has messed around it there. Looks stock ( and complex!)

Thanks for any ideas!

Sorry to hear this!

Do you see any corrosion on any of the components on the inside? If the magnetic pickups work, then it’s probably not the piezo preamp (since the magnetic pickups run through the piezo preamp on a pre-refined fly). Sometimes, an irregularly-sized quarter-inch jack will cause problems with the switching. Are you able to test this with a TRS cable to see if the signals are being transmitted?

Do you get any signal if you lightly touch the saddles or if you adjust the piezo control knob(s)?

#PiezoIssues

Here in coastal Florida, with any guitar I'd suspect the switch first.

If you can see contact in the switch try Caig DeOxit Red to clean corrosion off the contacts, and if that restores it, put some Caig DeOxit Gold to slow down future corrosion. These two products are a lifesaver for me here in salty, humid Florida. I used to get these at a local Radio Shack, now I get them at Amazon.

Notes

Notes_Norton wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:39 am Here in coastal Florida, with any guitar I'd suspect the switch first.

If you can see contact in the switch try Caig DeOxit Red to clean corrosion off the contacts, and if that restores it, put some Caig DeOxit Gold to slow down future corrosion. These two products are a lifesaver for me here in salty, humid Florida. I used to get these at a local Radio Shack, now I get them at Amazon.

Notes

I second this...I’ve used it for years on all my stereophile patch cords and it’s amazing stuff.
The gold on battery terminals improve conductivity enough on my ham radio and old cell phone that the battery would usually show a bar or two more after application. I used Deoxit to salvage a GPS battery compartment that had battery leakage about a month ago and it worked wonders.

Huh, I just wrote a lengthy reply and it disappeared after trying to post!
I am cursed!
Anyway, there is no corrosion. Inside looks pristine. The cable is the same stereo one that has worked for 7 months. No degradation of sound at all, just suddenly stopped working.
There is no noise at all when piezo is selected. Tapping on bridge or knob turning does nothing.

Yea, I think maybe the switch is the culprit, or at least the first place to look.
I'm not in Florida, but I could see a cheap little switch failing or gumming up.
I will play with that first. See if I can get it out and maybe connect some wires so it is permanently in stereo mode.

How hard could that be??

Thanks for the input you guys!

90% of the time it's the switch. I think the part # is actually on this site somewhere, too!

jb63 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:17 pm I think the part # is actually on this site somewhere, too!

Indeed: any three-way switch (on-off-on) will do; the original switch was made by C&K; I spoke with C&K and they said that this is very close to the original in bat size: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/611-7203T1CGE

I recently ordered this switch (and also the on-on-on switch for the magnetic pickups) from Mouser, but it was back-ordered, so, as soon as it arrives, I can confirm the size too.

Sorry to jump in late on this string. I have the same problem with the piezo system on my pre-refined Fly. It worked fine for years and one day just quit working. The magnetic pickups are working perfectly. I have taken it to 3 of the "best" guitar techs in St. Louis and none of them can fix it. Here is what all three have confirmed:
1. The piezo bridge saddles are fine and conducting signal
2. The little red stereo switch is working (of note-when I engage the switch, I hear a clunk sounding transient noise but it has no affect)
3. The switched stereo jack is working
4. The battery is good and sending signal to the circuitry
5. All switches and pots are functioning properly

The last tech seemed to do the most extensive troubleshooting and he ascertained that the problem was the preamp board. He said if I could find one, that he could replace it. I read somewhere in this forum that if the preamp board was bad, the mags would not work. I am very frustrated and want my piezos back

Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Hi @kylkrstng, and welcome to the forum!

The mag signal runs through the Fishman preamp, so, yes, if it was completely dead, there would be no signal passing through to the output jack. It sounds like yours is not in that state, but, the simplest fix, in my opinion, would be to wire point-to-point and then get a Fishman powerchip; this would be a similar wiring configuration to refined Flys. If you're certain that the piezo elements under the saddles work then that will really simplify the process!

This is, of course, just a suggestion. Regardless, there are wiring guides here, and, of course, many of here can help you work through this.

Thanks so much for the reply. Please forgive my ignorance on the subject but I had a few questions on installing the Powerchip.
-would that eliminate completely the current PC board that is in my Fly?
-would all the current switching still work the same as originally?
-would I lose the ability to adjust tone for the Piezos (concentric pot)?

Are there any other Forum members that have done this? If so, would you mind sending any comments, positive, negative, best practices, watch outs?

Thanks again for your help.

Hi @kylkrstng:

kylkrstng wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 4:06 pm -would that eliminate completely the current PC board that is in my Fly?

Yes, it would; replace the current Fishman preamp (version 1) and, along with it, the entire flex ribbon cable.

kylkrstng wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 4:06 pm -would all the current switching still work the same as originally?

Yes, it would if you replaced the preamp with the Fishman Powerchip (Rev 2) or even the Graphtech Ghost Preamp.

kylkrstng wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 4:06 pm -would I lose the ability to adjust tone for the Piezos (concentric pot)?

Yes, you would lose that functionality with the Fishman Powerchip (Rev 2), but not with the Graphtech Ghost Preamp; there are pros/cons to each, which would be, perhaps, addressed best in a new thread as many forum members have opinions about both systems and the particular saddle/piezo/preamp combinations they prefer.

kylkrstng wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 4:06 pm Are there any other Forum members that have done this?

Yes, going from the flex ribbon cable wiring to point-to-point is a common procedure, and there are some basic schematics here. Your favorite guitar tech could help you do this, and I'm sure there are some folks here that can assist you along the way. Again, best to create a new thread for your particular project.

Keep us posted and good luck!

Hi VJ. I am hoping you can help me. I took my 94 Fly in to the tech to have it wired ptp and add a Fishman Powerchip. Here is his latest reply. Can you tell me if that sounds correct?
"I may have to change out the master volume pot. That was the stacked 10K pot. The new configuration would be separate volumes for each pickup and a master tone. I may also have to change the selector switch for the magnetic pickups....don't know about that yet. Are you OK with these changes? Jimmy."

I would rather not lose the master volume pot, if possible. any advice?

Hi @kylkrstng; I think others may be able to speak to this as well, but my understanding is that a Master volume pot can only be used if the Fishman powerchip allows it (since it’s the mixer). Refined Flys obviously don’t have the master volume, but I’m not certain if that’s because the Fishman powerchip doesn’t allow it.

I believe we have the Fishman powerchip manual here, so it might be listed there, otherwise, Fishman May be able to shed some light on it.

It’s also possible that the Graphtech Ghost system allows for this. I know that lots of people miss the tone control for the piezo (available only for pre-refined piezo), and that the Ghost system does allow this control. Maybe that’s an option for you?

Keep us posted!

I don’t know why I never saw this post until now, but: On paper, you can use a dual-gang/stacked pot as a master volume in all refined Flys (Powerchip and Acoustiphonic) - The point-to-point wiring gives you as much flexibility as with any other guitar. Same goes for the GK and Hexpander boards (either/or - You’d need a three-gang master volume pot to control mag/piezo/MIDI). The only downside one may encounter is the sweep of the pot not turning down the piezo-fed signal at the same rate as the mag one (Graph Tech, for example, uses 250k pots with a linear taper for their piezo and MIDI "volume” controls - Whereas Fishman uses a 20K linear taper PCB pot for the Powerchip).

The point of the “refined” control scheme was (ostensibly) to use common components, and fewer of them. One is still free to implement a control scheme similar to the pre-refined Fly, if desired:

*Disclaimer that this is off the top of my head; and will likely require revision*

The signal path would be Mag pickups > mag volume in parallel with mag tone > mag master volume (dual gang pot) > piezo mixer input > out to "tip" lug of stereo jack. The piezo volume pot-out for the preamp mixer can also be replaced with a dual concentric pot in which one input can be used as a tone pot, then would have a gang of the dual gang master pot spliced between the output of the piezo volume and its return to the mixer (which outputs it to the "ring" lug of the jack).

That’s a good point, Marc! Thanks for pointing that out!

I never really missed the master volume or piezo tone on my refined Flys enough to pursue implementing what you’re suggesting, but it does seem feasible.

Late to the discussion but recently used MG Chemicals 846-80G conductive grease (Amazon) on my all original Mojo Fly piezo/pickup switch to stop the snap, crackle and pop it produces. Works like a charm but a little dab ‘ll do ya! Cut a thin strip of paper from a business card and dabbed it in the grease, wiped any excess grease off and then gingerly touched the strip to all open contact surfaces. I then worked the switch back and forth to make sure the grease wasn’t bridging the open contacts. If this happens just redab the contacts with a clean strip of business card paper to remove the excess grease.

PanamaCZ wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:12 pm Late to the discussion but recently used MG Chemicals 846-80G conductive grease (Amazon) on my all original Mojo Fly piezo/pickup switch to stop the snap, crackle and pop it produces. Works like a charm but a little dab ‘ll do ya! Cut a thin strip of paper from a business card and dabbed it in the grease, wiped any excess grease off and then gingerly touched the strip to all open contact surfaces. I then worked the switch back and forth to make sure the grease wasn’t bridging the open contacts. If this happens just redab the contacts with a clean strip of business card paper to remove the excess grease.

Where exactly u put the grease?? I have the same problem with weird noise/crackle just when the piezo is engaged. Maybe u could help me.

Hi
Not sure if you resolved the issue but on the older flys, if one piezo saddle goes dead, the whole piezo side shuts down. Try de-soldering one saddle at a time from rear of trem to pin point faulty saddle.

First thing to check is the preamp circuit board. Bypass it upstream first.You can see the coax cable coming out from out the bridge and soldered to the preamp circuit board. DON'T UNSOLDER ANYTHING! Just 2 wires (preferrably with alligator clips on them) or use tape and clip one wire to the outer steel braided part of the soldered cable and the circuit board. This will be the negative lead and you clip or tape the other end of this wire to
the outer sleeve (or Ring) of a regular 1/4 inch guitar cable. then take a 2nd wire and clip it to the center conductor that is soldered to a separate area just ahead of the the first steel braided soldered area on the circuit board. (you can tell because the center conductor extends out from the inside of the coax cable). this will be the positive lead and you clip the other end of this to the tip of the guitar cable. of course make sure your battery is fresh for the preamp. Finally plug the other end of the guitar cable into an amplifier, preamp, modeler etc and switch on the piezo only. if you get sound from the piezo's coming to your amp you know the piezo system is still good but your preamp is bad. If you get no sound then your bridge piezo's are the problem. In my case (1997 pre refined fly) my piezo's were good so I finally replaced the circuit board with a fishman powerchip and changed out the flat ribbon cables and went with point to point wiring like a regular guitar. All this of course assuming you have checked the switches first. You just put a multimeter on each of the switches in the cavity one at a time. They are passive switches and don't need to be powered to checks them. If you don't know how to use a multimeter get a very short piece of wire and on the on off switches with just 2 metal tabs on them attach your piece of wire to each of the 2 tabs and you can bypass the switch completely. On the 3 way switches for the front /back/all humbucker selection and piezo/humbucker selection there will be 3 metal tabs. The center one is the hot where you attach one end of your wire or multimeter and the 2 outside ones are either of the options one side front humbucker other side rear humbucker and middle switch both humbuckers. Piezo/mag switch is same center tab is hot where you attach wire or multimeter outside tabs where you attach the other end of the wire are piezo one side, humbuckers other side and switch in the middle will activate both sides humbucker AND Piezo. You can check the pots this way too with your piece of wire. just look for the 2 wires on the pot. one going into the pot and the other coming out. Just attach your piece of wire to each of these 2 wires on the pot and you have bypassed (or removed the pot from the equation) So you can say for sure it isn't just one of your pots or switches before you replace the circuit board. I called Fishman and they no longer repairs these preamp circuit boards so you have to replace them now. Of course check all your ribbon cables for cracks as well but if you haven't been inside the cavity playing around before this happened its probably not that. Good luck!.