Springs

[Musikron]

Man I legit loose sleep at night over my poor fly spring and all the abuse I give it on the daily. But I can't bring myself to stop using it, so I just flirt with disaster every time I whap that bar for a flutter.

[vjmanzo]

Man I legit loose sleep at night over my poor fly spring...

Don't lose sleep over that, m'friend! Part of the analysis we've been doing has resulted in some early takeaways about Fly springs; one of which is regarding how they break. Here's an early screenshot from our simulation environment:

We now have a good understanding about how Fly springs tend to break and what happens to them as they approach this state. There are some general "warning signs" we can talk about more concretely later and we're developing a better assessment tool, but for now, this seems to be the guiding principle about assessing the state of your spring's lifecycle:
if your Fly spring is able to float properly (as per this guide; including retain pitch when step-stop is up/down) then your spring is okay.

The springs develop microscopic holes over time and eventually will fail, but, first, they'll begin to be less "springy". Of course, aggressive bending can break even a good Fly spring...we're working to engineer that out to some degree and determine an actual usage cycle so players will know more transparently when they should change their springs! More on that in time!

I'd like to also say that it is very unlikely that a spring will break in such a way where it will shoot through the top of the guitar. It's not impossible apparently, but it's not at all likely.

[alfonsobarrios]

We truly appreciate that @vjmanzo, now, I was trying to find a workaround for this problem. Do you think a trem stabilizer modification or adaption could work for this? At least at the Bend down only position ? Just throwing out ideas

[vjmanzo]

Thanks, @alfonsobarrios. I think something like that could fit, but it would require you to remove some of the Fly vibrato parts and get a little creative with how it actually works. I use the Tremol-no on my NiteFly (just my personal preference for a hardtail) and it looks like this:

The important thing to note is how the Tremol-no claw screws into the body and how it clamps the bridge--these two aspects of the NiteFly vibrato bridge are different on a Fly vibrato bridge, so a Tremol-no/Stablizer type of device probably still won't solve the "spring" problem, unfortunately, and probably not to a satisfactory degree.

[mark74]

So based on that image, it looks like the stress is the red areas? I'm going to paint my spring green and will report back

[vjmanzo]

So based on that image, it looks like the stress is the red areas? I'm going to paint my spring green and will report back

Full report coming soon, but yes, red shows increased stress in certain aspects of the application and, yes, absolutely you are correct: painting your spring green will reduce tension overall!!

[alfonsobarrios]

Hi everyone,

I wonder if there are any updates? I know as @vjmanzo replied, they are making the very best to come out with a improved design, just wanted to let my know, personally, I'm Ok with any functional design for 9 or 10's, if I have to change it every other year or so I wouldn't mind, as long as they are available, I thought about saying this cause maybe it is the same for many Parker guitar owners, if you have a prototype or something we could try while you come up with the better design I would be up for that. Sorry about being so insistent, I'm desesperante about the spring thing, I truly appreciate your efforts.

[mmmguitar]

Hi everyone, I wonder if there are any updates?

I’m unaware of any being shared in the time since VJ answered this same question last week. I don’t know if anyone’s gotten an update from Mike G since December, but that was the last I had heard from him. Based on what’s been shared on this site so far, VJ doesn’t seem the type to forget or otherwise neglect to share important developments with us as they occur. I had a 10 spring break as well, but I also recognize that a sense of desperation will only result in the wait for good news passing more slowly.

[vjmanzo]

VJ doesn’t seem the type to forget or otherwise neglect to share important developments with us as they occur.

Remember that scene in Lord of the Rings when they light those torch beacons all across Middle-earth? We’ll do that once the springs are available!

[alfonsobarrios]

Sounds great! I apologize, I'm desesperate as you can tell. I'll be patient and wait for news, thanks!!

[mmmguitar]

As Mike’s NOS 10 spring auction experiment on eBay wraps up, I’m curious to see if future spring listings dip below the $76 mark the high bid has been sitting at. Then again, I wouldn’t be surprised if a final bid crossed the $100 line.

Update: I couldn't resist; and wagered $79 that someone was sniping. I got my confirmation with the buyer’s $80 purchase in the last second of the auction. I’m curious to see how much they try to flip that 10 spring for.

[alfonsobarrios]

About that spring on eBay, It has been listed again, now for the third time...

[mmmguitar]

I assume Mike’s auctioning one at a time and cloning the listing for the sake of gauging demand and an average of what folks are willing to pay. Then again, I haven’t asked. It’d be funny if it indeed was the same spring each time.

[alfonsobarrios]

Could be... Prices are going high on these.

[Moniker]

Hi guys, just found this forum and love that there is a group so dedicated to the Fly! Will definitely be following the spring development process and so glad there will be some hope when the inevitable happens. I couldn’t live without mine!

[vjmanzo]

Welcome, @Moniker! We’ll all get there together

[TheResseler]

Update:
There's been somebody selling springs for $170 each on Reverb. This has officially gotten out of hand

[alfonsobarrios]

It's out of control yeap... I'll wait for a more reasonable price. Fixed bridge it is for now.

[mmmguitar]

Unfortunately, the trajectory toward these inflated prices was set once Reverb began collecting sales tax on used items: If someone with a "buy to try" mentality pays five or more percent in fees over the listing price, you can expect them to pass that overhead on by relisting for at least five percent over what they paid. It is what it is.

Compared to the better-known guitar brands, the demand for niche ones such as Artistides, Parker, or Steinberger is actually quite low. But then you have a dozen or so owners trading in private Facebook groups: Once a seller sees a guitar being listed in the group for more than they believe they can trade one of theirs for, they list on Reverb in the hope that the visibility will lead to a quick sale. But because the Reverb listings are all sellers from within the same niche community, there's no actual competition - They're matching asking prices for the sake of preserving the perceived resale market value of their guitars. And because there are seller's fees, that overhead is added to the asking price. And because there are buyer's fees, the subsequent reseller adds both the buyer's and seller's fees to their relisting of an item that, until recently, would have depreciated each time it changed hands.

It becomes a bubble in which sellers are ironically blaming rising asking prices for their decision to increase their asking price:

"Prices are crazy, man! I bought one of these last year just to see what the fuss was about and, now that I own five of them, people are asking twice what I paid! I'm going to have to list mine for close to that just to afford this even pricier listing for the one I really want! YOLO."

The reason we have $5,000 Flys on Reverb at the moment is because a $1,000 Fly covered in dings that someone bought a few years ago has changed hands four or more times since Reverb began adding sales tax to the buyer's overhead. Individuals with Flys in better condition are seeing these listings and just salivating as they list their comparatively "++++MINT+++++" one for more.

As others have surely noticed, a number of those $3k+ Reverb listings for Flys with an 11 spring installed are being sold by the same few guys from the Facebook groups who scooped them up for $2K last year, then listed the 9 or 10 gauge springs that came with the guitar for more than $100 each. Even the Fly owners who post here are foregoing our free Classifieds section to list on Reverb, simply because they can get more cash in the short term by feeding the bubble (even if they end up selling the guitar to another Fly Clone poster). I wonder how many of them understand that selling Flys in this manner eventually prices their own guitar beyond their budget.

That all being said, I don't mean to give the impression that I begrudge individuals doing what seems best for them in the short term. The big-picture consequence is that, eventually, the only Flys being passed around will be the lemons nobody wants to keep; and someone is going to get stuck with a six thousand dollar beater that they can't refurbish or sell without taking a loss. We're already seeing examples of the same lemons changing hands amongst those who refuse to admit that depreciation exists (e.g. the Ice Blue Deluxe with the neck rattle that's changed hands a few times, the black Classic with the dead piezos, the red Classic with chips around the fingerboard, that gray S2 that everyone wants so badly that they forget that the seller is the same guy who complained about the previous owner failing to disclose that the Gen 1 electronics need replacing, etc.).

As novel as the Fly design is, I fear the flippers in our community have ensured that no Fly will be worth owning until the bottom drops out of the market again. At this point, the best I feel I can hope for is that individuals as generous as VJ are able to put new parts into circulation.

[vjmanzo]

Thanks for the kind words, Marc. Regarding springs specifically, I really do understand the “human nature” aspect of someone setting a high asking price for a spring knowing that they’re in short supply and that some people really need them. It seems opportunistic to me, and, personally, I think we can be better than that, especially given how niche the Fly community is, but, of course, I understand it.

Come to think of it, the only flipper I really like is this guy:

Small steps forward, but we will get there!