the Fly Clone Project

Is the chat with the reverb support also a part of the scam? Because these messages are also somewhat weird.

Unfortunatly we are currently having problems with our PayPal payment system, so some payments are not going through succesfully.
15:01:19
Reverb Support

We are now going to refund your payment to your PayPal account, and provide you a personal payment link, where you can choose one of available payment methods
15:01:32
Reverb Support

Your order has been refunded, please proceed to payment following your personal link:
15:02:22
Reverb Support

PAYMENT LINK
15:02:24
Reverb Support

I have been refunded but I noticed that there was a very similar listing to the one I tried to buy. The pictures are the same but the seller location is different.
15:21:08
Me

That listing might be fake, please do not engage
15:21:56
Reverb Support

https://reverb.com/item/75425124-parker ... _sold=true
notice the sellers location as Greenford, United Kingdom while the one I just tried to buy was Runkelen, Belgium.
15:23:30
Me

That listing was fake Sir
15:24:02
Reverb Support

Thank you for helping me with the refund. Have a nice day.
15:25:59
Me

Do you need any help in making this transaction Sir?
15:26:26
Reverb Support

I just showed you another listing with the same pictures from a different seller. I think this listing is fake and a scam.
15:28:06
Me

The listing you showed me is fake, this one is legit
15:29:26
Reverb Support

Why would this one be legit when its newer? The one from United Kingdom was 2 days ago. This one from Belgium 1 day ago with the same pictures.
15:32:51
Me

Because we have verified the seller with his ID document and KYC verification
15:33:55
Reverb Support

I have been refunded by Reverb but am still asked to pay with a different method even when I explain the identical listing?

vaya wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:41 am Is the chat with the reverb support also a part of the scam?

No. However, it doesn’t seem that they have a clear sense of what’s happening. As long as you’ve got your money, then you’re good.

For what it's worth (not much, in this case ) I had reported that "Belgian" clone listing as fraudulent within a few minutes of it having been published (with the report unambiguously linking to the listing it was cloned from).

The problem is that, on the weekends, Etsy doesn't allocate Reverb support/moderation staff in numbers sufficient to prune these fraudulent listings in a timely manner. This means that every Friday is generally when you see the cloned listings published by scammers counting on their bait to be left up until Monday morning.

Almost EUR 22k for the Parker Fly Custom "Thor" on Reverb.
https://reverb.com/item/70596786-parker ... l-mahogany

What are those sellers doing? Deter lowball buyers and simply wait until someone offers enough?
I really don't get it.

Still nice to see one of the Northern Flys again.

Greetings...
Nef

Nefarius wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:47 am Almost EUR 22k for the Parker Fly Custom "Thor" on Reverb.
https://reverb.com/item/70596786-parker ... l-mahogany

What are those sellers doing? Deter lowball buyers and simply wait until someone offers enough?
I really don't get it.

Still nice to see one of the Northern Flys again.

Greetings...
Nef

That's with a $2500 price drop!

Yeah, I'm slowly starting to recognize this is a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

I will ask a friend to take a few professional photos of my DF845 Custom and write up a melodramatic posting, including "one of a kind" (which it is) and "original owner" (which I am) and, of course, a ridiculous price tag (which will be ridiculous). Consider it a social experiment.

And if someone makes an offer that's ridiculous enough, it shall fund some new gear I'd actually be using. Unlike my future ex-Parker that would most likely end up in storage of some guitar dealer and show up occasionally on different websites for even more ridiculous price tags.

What would be an appropriately ridiculous price tag?

Greetings...
Nef

Nefarius wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:01 am What would be an appropriately ridiculous price tag?

Marc has summarized some high price tags that might be a good reference:

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:42 pm This '99 Supreme with a hidden serial (nonetheless identifiable through its body's grain markings), in "mint except for a finish chip" condition, was asking $10,145 until the listing price dropped to $8,950 on 9/21, then to $7,995 on 9/30. After rejecting two offers, the seller unlisted the guitar; which was concurrently listed in the FB groups with a $7,500 asking price, before again being dropped to $6,500 on 10/6. It's possible a FB sale for that amount precipitated the Supreme being taken off Reverb.

'99 Natural Classic 236029BMH previously advertised without a price here with the qualification that "I'm sure it is worth far more than what most of them are selling for, considering her age and MINT condition", asking $9,904.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:42 pm Now, if we look at the guitars in that $9K+ range which have sold, what's shown is that the actual, final sale prices are undisclosed because they were negotiated:

The $27,000 Koa Fly, listed at that price to circumvent paying for Reverb bumps, sold following three offers. The $10,095 2013 quilt burst blue Mojo P1308021 went for a single offer.

Might be a good idea to consider what amount you’d be comfortable getting for the instrument. As Marc suggests, the instruments with very high price tags tend to just sit there until someone offers something that the seller is comfortable getting for the instrument. If you already have that number in mind, you could just ask for that and not offer the option to receive offers.

I'd much rather see it go to someone who will actually play and enjoy it. But someone seriously overpaying and funding a lot of new gear is certainly an interesting possibility. I guess most of all I'm just curious what kinds of offers would actually come in, hence calling it a "social experiment". Unless one of you has already tried this and is willing to spill the beans.

Greetings...
Nef

If it's up in a year from now I'd love to be the person who'd actually play and enjoy it but not for the "join em" reverb price

That being said, I'm sure you could "lift" some language of how you'll never see one of these again or whatever ballyhoo those 20k listings have.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm In either case, the brand seems to still be on the Steinberger trajectory (with aftermarket scarcity of premium models fueling the belief that sub-$500 import models with visible wear can now command a $500+ asking price).

My hope is that it’s due to players growing more appreciative and holding on to a Fly as their sleeper-brand #1, rather than just sitting on them like they’re crypto.

Greetings!

I completely agree with your opinion that the popularity of the Fly brand continues to grow. The high asking prices for imported models under $500 are evidence of this.

I think there are several reasons why Fly is becoming more and more popular. First of all, these are really great guitars. They sound good, play well and have a unique design. Secondly, they are relatively affordable, making them accessible to a wider range of players. Third, they are unique and stand out from other guitars.

I think Fly's rise in popularity is a positive thing. This means more people have the opportunity to enjoy these great tools.

As for whether Fly's rise in popularity is a result of players becoming more appreciative of the brand or just speculation, I think it's a combination of both. I'm sure there are some players who really appreciate Fly and want to support the brand. However, I'm also sure there are some players who are simply speculating on their value.

Ultimately, I don't care what's driving Fly's rise in popularity. I'm just glad this brand is becoming more popular.

Mod edit: Did anyone manage to read through the whole post before they recognized that this was a bot account? I removed the crypto advertisement from the end, but thought to leave this up as an example in case there’s an influx of similar bot accounts posters will need to learn to recognize.

Thermand wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:27 pm
Mod edit: Did anyone manage to read through the whole post before they recognized that this was a bot account? I removed the crypto advertisement from the end, but thought to leave this up as an example in case there’s an influx of similar bot accounts posters will need to learn to recognize.

Wow. It sounded weird and I was waiting for an Ad or Sale notice, but never would've recognized a bot!

https://reverb.com/item/76594556-parker ... t=76594556

Here’s an interesting listing that didn’t last more than a few minutes. I’ve never heard of a “custom cedar” model. Is this legit? Price was very reasonable if so. The last line of the listing about being shipped from Korea seems a little suspect.

Yes, it’s legit. Any time you see a cedar Fly, however, it’s mostly like a USM-era Fly (like the one you linked in your post) as Ken only made a handful of cedar Flys—cedar particles can stay in your lungs and become disastrous for certain folks with an intolerance to it; Ken is one of these individuals. The Fly Artist/Concert is typically associated with a Sitka spruce body as you likely know, but Joni Mitchell’s Fly and a few other Ken-era Fly Artist/Concert models have a cedar body.

Ken Parker wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:20 am My true faves have spruce or cedar bodies, so in spruce (one-piece of sitka spruce from out your way) it would be the “Artist” if you need the magnetics, and the “Concert” if you don’t.

Cedar bodies were so very few, maybe 10?

The awful problem was the human respiratory reaction to the nice cedar closet smell that murders moth larvae in their sleep, ya know?

Many of us suffered terribly in the shop when we made cedar guitars, and of course it would have been madness to ignore it.

#WoodTypes

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:55 am Yes, it’s legit. Any time you see a cedar Fly, however, it’s mostly like a USM-era Fly (like the one you linked in your post) as Ken only made a handful of cedar Flys—cedar particles can stay in your lungs and become disastrous for certain folks with an intolerance to it; Ken is one of these individuals. The Fly Artist/Concert is typically associated with a Sitka spruce body as you likely know, but Joni Mitchell’s Fly and a few other Ken-era Fly Artist/Concert models have a cedar body.

Cool, thanks for the info! Looks like somebody scored a pretty sweet deal on this then.

I’ve only been back to collecting Parker guitars again in the past year. My old ones were from back before the USM era. I’m starting to notice pre refined flys starting to go down a little. It was nearly impossible to find one a few months ago for under $3000. Now I see several for $2500 give or take a few hundred. I haven’t looked at the market for several years before I started getting mine since last September. Any thoughts on if it would be wise to wait to find a better deal on them or do you guys think the prices will jump back up? I did manage to snag one of my hornet basses for $450 recently. The p series guitars are all over the place as far as prices. I am seeing some p38s for the price of what I paid for TWO of them combined. I really only see a few models I’m really pressed to get before I call my collection complete. Midi nitefly and blue gator skin p36 and a pre refined fly. And maybe a nylon fly.

Mike987 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:07 pm Any thoughts on if it would be wise to wait to find a better deal on them or do you guys think the prices will jump back up?

My two cents are that I think most of the listings are going to continue to stay where they've been until everyone starts receiving their tax refunds. Even then, I doubt people will be giving the priciest listings any more attention than they have been. I'd suggest continuing to check the usual places every day until one of the models you mentioned happens to pop up for a price you can live with, in a condition you can live with.

Despite many competing listings having sat for months, Flys from Ken and USM eras of production are nonetheless managing to sell each week, for wildly varying prices I feel result from one of two kinds of sales:

Those selling in the $3,500-4,500 range are listed as being in mint condition (or "near-mint", with emphasis instead placed on the original case and accessories being included) or from desirable SKUs (e.g., Fly Bronze, Nylon, Artist, etc.). $5,000 seems to be the cap on this; judging by examples over that amount having sat for the longest periods, even following asking prices having been lowered five or more times in the past six months.

On the lower end of final sale prices, we seem to mainly see the beaters or examples which, though in fair overall condition, are redundant to three or more competing listings on the same site. We recently saw a black hardtail Ken-era Fly sell for $1,600 for no reason other than it had obviously not been a case queen. Meanwhile, there's a $3,500 example in better condition which I predict will continue to hang there on Reverb into 2024. The ones actually managing to change hands are resulting from sellers who are simply more committed to offloading the guitar than they are to having their listing sit for months-on-end next to six other red Classics or Deluxes which refuse to go below $2,500.

I mainly follow Parker, Steinberger, Vigier, and Aristides trends; and resale demand has seemingly slowed to a trickle for all of them. For similarly "niche" brands with higher production numbers (such as Strandberg), resale prices have been trending downward with the exception of limited edition colors and SKUs existing solely to mitigate the guitars devaluing the brand through competing with themselves (nowadays, the new/used storefront is the same page on the same website).

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:12 am

Mike987 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:07 pm Any thoughts on if it would be wise to wait to find a better deal on them or do you guys think the prices will jump back up?

For similarly "niche" brands with higher production numbers (such as Strandberg), resale prices have been trending downward with the exception of limited edition colors and SKUs existing solely to mitigate the guitars devaluing the brand through competing with themselves (nowadays, the new/used storefront is the same page on the same website).

Strandberg have been increasing their prices in the EU at least. They are even selling NOS guitars marked down by 15% that are hundreds of euros more expensive than they were 3 years ago when production ceased.

As for the Parker Fly i think its a combination of the word getting out that its a very well made and uniquely constructed instrument and more players being less concerned about traditional styles of guitar. Add in the fact that inflation has been a really good excuse for people to think that their things are worth more than before and the "we sold 10000$ guitars for 4000$" comment as reasons for why used Parker Flys are so expensive right now.

vaya wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:02 pm Strandberg have been increasing their prices in the EU at least. They are even selling NOS guitars marked down by 15% that are hundreds of euros more expensive than they were 3 years ago when production ceased.

Yeah; I don't know what that brand's future is. When they announced the cost-cutting measures of the NX line as "premium features" to justify price increases (while, at the time, discontinuing the actual premium neck-thru line), my first thought was that they were dooming themselves to the Carvin/Kiesel rout; where every owner is essentially committing to resell at a loss whenever they buy a new one.

For added context, I was referring to Strandberg having NOS/refurb models listed alongside new ones on their region-specific site storefronts, with (in the US region, anyway) around $2-300 difference - Yet all their NOS/refurb inventory is actually on Reverb; where they're forced to compete with their own depreciation internationally. It doesn't make sense to me; being as listing their cheapest product in a wholesale capacity, in the same space owners are reselling theirs, just forces their own buyers to undercut the brand with their own product.

I try to make sense of it by wondering if Ed Yoon has data demonstrating that the practice of increasing prices on new inventory by a yearly rate sustains margins which would otherwise shrink due to losing sales to the secondhand market they themselves compete with in the same marketplace. At that point, they may as well be their own reseller in a consignment capacity.

vaya wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:02 pm inflation has been a really good excuse for people to think that their things are worth more than before and the "we sold 10000$ guitars for 4000$" comment as reasons for why used Parker Flys are so expensive right now.

I'm glad you brought that up: I've been seeing that adage repeated more and more often in the FB (support) groups; where the owners invoking the prices seem to be quoting different numbers every time I wish my guitars were worth more than I've paid into them! Speaking only for myself, of course: Everything I touch seems to depreciate.

vaya wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:02 pm …the "we sold 10000$ guitars for 4000$" comment…

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:11 pm I've been seeing that adage repeated more and more often in the FB (support) groups; where the owners invoking the prices seem to be quoting different numbers every time

I was going to draw attention to that phenomenon as well, which I’ve also observed.

The phrase Ken has said is "we were making $10,000 guitars and trying to sell them for $3000". Of note, the $10,000 he’s referring to is primarily the hours of hand labor involved from skilled craftspeople and not materials—and also that more than half of the production cost of the Fly, according to @Ken Parker, went into the finish.

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:53 pm the $10,000 he’s referring to is primarily the hours of hand labor involved from skilled craftspeople and not materials—and also that more than half of the production cost of the Fly, according to Ken Parker, went into the finish.

Indeed. My fallible memory recalls the context for that quote being an interview in which Ken was elaborating as to why it was such a personal relief to have offloaded the 24/7 stress of a guitar company that perpetually required constant sacrifice to sustain on a month-by-month basis, in which financial security was simply nonexistent. Since the pandemic lockdown, however, that quote has taken on new life as a non-sequitur invoked in the course of suggesting to others that buying a Fly is not only their own idea, but prescribed along the lines of some kind of NFT equity investment scheme (rather than a guitar).

And so I await the inevitable post or listing in which the $10,000 asking price is qualified with that quote (+$500 shipping).

This 2012 Mojo MIDI in Italian Plum (serial P1207017) just sold for $2,750 - A far cry from the pair of "Taxi Drive" Mojo MIDIs sellers presumed to have appreciated to be worth $10,000 and $19,000, respectively.

Of note is that the Fly is a Graph Tech-era instrument with a Roland GK internal kit, rather than the Hexpander board. Given the year, it raises the question of whether the Hexpander was not yet available to USM in an OEM capacity (or as an ordering option when spec-ing a Fly through the dealer network), whether it was a matter of using up the remaining stock of Roland kits the SKU was spec'd for before switching over, or whether it was buyer-specified (the GK is known to offer superior performance in tracking and minimized crosstalk).

Post-Xmas Update: As one might expect, a number of buyers treated themselves to some Parker-branded instruments this week. Examples include a trans butterscotch '98 Fly Supreme (serial 278038 BMA) which was listed for $5,800 on Reverb (but which the owner was advertising in the FB groups for an even $5k, and subsequently confirmed to have sold to one of our members), the '13 Koa DF842 with gold hardware (serial P1309005 BK) which sold for an undisclosed offer after having been listed on Reverb off and on for $10k+, a cherry '05 Mojo for $3,090 (serial 1900605 MM), and a butterscotch '08 P36 for $670 (serial 08040752).

Here's a blue "1988" Classic on eBay (serial 125088 BMH) for $3,295. 1/2/24 Update: Listed production date corrected by seller.

1/1/24: Guitar Center has a Ken-era Majik Blue Deluxe with "electronics issue" for $1,999 (no serial pictured). Update: Sold later in the day.

Black '93 Deluxe (serial 314013BP) sold for $2,350 + shipping.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:03 pm This white '09 Classic (serial P0904081) was listed for $3,600 and sold after four offers, only to immediately be flipped for $4,575 after taking photos of the guitar next to a swimming pool apparently caused it to greatly appreciate in value.