the Fly Clone Project

vjmanzo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:58 pm I love everything about this post, @mmmguitar except that you have to wait! Sounds like that will be a great and very flexible rig!!!

Thanks. In the meantime, my wallet can be happy!

Do tell ... where did you hear of that Roland unit? I'd like to read up on it.

Patzag wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 3:26 pm Do tell ... where did you hear of that Roland unit? I'd like to read up on it.

There's not much to read, as of yet. Elantric on vguitarforums began teasing it a few months ago [all subsequent quotes are taken from the same thread - I somehow user-errored my way into making all the subsequent post-specific hyperlinks fail].

I met with Boss Japan at 2024 Winter NAMM

In 2024 Boss will release a product with:

• Serial GK
• Guitar Modeling
• Pedal format

At the beginning of August, Elantric let us know that the unit's announcement had been delayed until 2025 Winter NAMM. When asked, "Can you say if the new box will also have any amp modeling or effects processing or is it literally a pedal, using serial GK and it models guitars?", Elantric replied

I can say its delayed because thay are adding more of what the current market needs to succeed

All based upon the current management, engineers, tasked to review the trends and user wishes posted here at VGUITARFORUMS.

We are winning

Zero 13 pin on new device

SERIAL GK Processors may be daisy chained using TRS cables

The last SERIAL GK Processor in signal chain will connect its Main Left, Right Stereo outputs to Amplification system, no other mixers required

So my speculation is fueled in part by what I feel would make the most sense to include as a feature set in a product intended to be daisy-chained in tandem with the GM-800's feature set so that neither is redundant to the other, the crumbs of information Elantric has been allowed to share, and the various "wishlist" posts I've seen others make since the GT1000, GK5-external pickup, and GM-800 units were released (e.g., basically every guitar, pickup, effect, and amp-modeling feature conspicuously absent in the GM-800; which is more or less strictly for the triggering and sequencing of layered samples and MIDI conversion, rather than processing the hex pickup signal with DSP for lower latency sounds, as the previous 13 pin units did).

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 2:48 pm

KenanJ wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2024 1:48 pm What are you waiting from Roland ?

I'm waiting on their yet-to-be-announced outboard multi-FX floor unit for use with the GK5 hex pickup/onboard A/D converter preamp (which outputs a digital signal from the guitar via a twisted pair A2B cable with 1/4" T/R/S plugs). It will supposedly be similar to their GT-1000 unit, but with additional onboard guitar/pickup modeling for GK5-equipped guitars and basses (which is the main aspect I'm interested in; as it is now relegated to being the marketplace successor to the Line 6 Variax product line, since Yamaha discontinued it and Sim1 Guitar went out of business).

Because my rig has had a GR-55 at the front of it since its release in 2011, I'm hoping to finally be able to move on from 13 pin cables and, ideally, consolidate the guitar/bass rig to an all-digital one in which GK5-equipped instruments run into a pair of daisy-chained floor units (the unnamed one and the GM-800), then into a Macbook via USB. The goal is to cover as much ground as I can with one or two toys on the floor, and an expression pedal for each (I still have an Axe FX; should I need to cover even more ground).

The project Fly I have will essentially be a refinement of the Adrian Belew model for the "GK Serial" generation of gear - But that new unit is the final piece of the puzzle the project hinges on fitting; so I can't move forward with it until I have one on order.

It's such a great project, it's exactly what I would look for in a rig as well! Are you referring to the Boss GK5 pickup? I'm not very aware about those top mount pickups but what is the difference between Roland gk3 and boss gk5 and also I thought MIDI was essentially to transform you guitar signal to a signal that could be modified on the fly with modelers and such can you elaborate a bit more it seems so cool!

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 2:34 am Are you referring to the Boss GK5 pickup?

Yes - Specifically, the GK5-KIT-G6. Roland has made this extra-confusing in recent years; due to arbitrarily branding new releases "Roland" or "Boss" for marketing purposes. Everything in the GK-Serial generation seems to be "Boss" (for now).

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 2:34 am what is the difference between Roland gk3 and boss gk5

The main difference is the analog-to-digital converter the GK5 has. The GK3 outputs an analog signal via CA-0842 shielded 13 conductor cable with DIN connectors (here are pin map illustration notes I made for Adrian Belew model specs, as an example).


Unfortunately, there are some fidelity compromises inherent in the cable design, which players have endured as a necessary evil: It is a high impedance setup requiring buffering (with the guitar's magnetic pickup signal being severely downgraded during its trip down pin 7), the pins tend to oxidize within the first year of use, and movement at the socket can introduce a cacophony of unwanted noise into the signal, which is further exacerbated by accumulation of debris and the loosening of any connections. Roland having changed suppliers several times since 1989 has resulted in the only modern source of pro-grade 13 pin cables being third party suppliers (I just ordered a new one because I’m down to my last Roland cable; and it sounds like Mel Blanc impersonating Jack Benny's Maxwell Runabout.

Roland 13 pin synth units have A/D converters at the unit input (as we've come to expect of most modern guitar gear). The GK-serial/GK5 series deals with the above-mentioned issues by having the A/D converter as part of the pickup assembly, and outputting to a data cable. I previously appreciated having this option in my Variax instruments (which outputted to a Line 6 unit via Cat5e data cables).

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2024 2:34 am I thought MIDI was essentially to transform you guitar signal to a signal that could be modified on the fly with modelers and such can you elaborate a bit more

The Roland/Boss-branded guitar synths and their accessories being referred to as "MIDI" is largely a misnomer: Though many of the units can output converted MIDI via 5 pin connections to other outboard gear which utilizes it, their original synthesizers utilized six monophonic, analog effects units for each string; which meant the "guitar synthesizer" had zero latency. The brand's modern approach to that end is affecting each isolated string signal with DSP while avoiding any unnecessary conversion (there is an in-depth input settings calibration process for each instrument you plug in to the unit, which is stored as a preset).

For the triggering of samples within the unit, however, there is a noticeable degree of latency, as well as the potential for note-mistriggering and pitch-tracking errors in the data conversion (garbage in, garbage out; with the previously mentioned input settings calibration process being for the sake of mitigating this) - However, Roland uses their own proprietary protocol for this sample-triggering conversion, which they claim is far more involved than MIDI. So, up until now, the trend has been for Roland guitar synths to have a sample-triggering side with latency and tracking issues (which the GM-800 represents), and a minimal latency, DSP Multi-FX side which models guitars, pickups, effects, and amplifiers (and which the mono-input GT1000 and the unannounced GK-serial unit represent).

Whether splitting that functionality between two, dedicated units pays off for Roland/Boss, we'll just have to wait and see - Their track record includes a number of blunders and consumer disappointments to do with specific features being conspicuously compromised or removed for the sake of hitting a price point. Even their best effort at a "kitchen sink" approach with the VG-99 - Considered by many to be the best guitar synth they ever released - was discontinued after two years, due to low sales.

Hey guys I just received the first new know for the 97 supreme.

I was wondering what’s the safest way to trove the existing knobs without damaging the flex pcb.

Thank you guys

KenanJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:50 pm Hey guys I just received the first new know for the 97 supreme.

I was wondering what’s the safest way to trove the existing knobs without damaging the flex pcb.

Thank you guys

Just pull on the knob. It's not connected to the PCB.

Patzag wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2024 3:22 pm

KenanJ wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:50 pm Hey guys I just received the first new know for the 97 supreme.

I was wondering what’s the safest way to trove the existing knobs without damaging the flex pcb.

Thank you guys

Just pull on the knob. It's not connected to the PCB.

Thanks I will try this out

Bumping to link to some recent posts from the vguitarforums comparing MIDI conversion latency between the GK5+GM800 combo on firmware 1.10 and Fishman TriplePlay, for anyone considering either. The short of it is that the weakest link in the signal path remains the player.

Thanks @mmmguitar for sharing. Great content as always

Inspired by this post and many others on this forum related to Flys with MIDI, I decided to get the brand new Fishman Triplelay Express USB-C and it has not been a good experience. I've been back and forth with Fishman support for about a week now, which has been great, but the product itself has been disappointing for me.

In short, 1) the adhesive of the bracket is not sticky enough to allow the actual sensor to sit in it and 2) it's too tall to fit under the strings of my Fly and NiteFly. Here's one of the videos I've sent to Fishman's support:



A few minutes after making this video, the bracket lifted again and now I have audible string buzz on open strings. Fishman was kind to send me some additional brackets, but I've now gone through four of them and they all do not stay stuck no matter how long I hold them in place—I think the contoured body of the Fly and the straight Tripleplay element are at odds.

Pardon the modest thread hijack, but all of this to say, @Jupiter, in my experience so far, I would not categorize the Fishman Tripleplay Express as a trouble-free solution for Flys or NiteFlys with low action as far as installation goes. I will likely try it on an SG or a Strat and get a sense of how the tracking goes.




::Update::

I tried ditching the bracket altogether and using Blu-Tack to hold the Tripleplay in place:
No luck! The Blu-Tak held like a champ, but the Tripleplay was still too tall for the Fly near the G and B strings, so while I was able to use the device to some degree, there was a considerable amount of string buzzing.

Fishman support said:

If the action on the guitar is low enough that the pickup by itself won't fit under the strings, then you really only have a couple options. You can either raise the action to get it to fit, or shim the neck to change the angle. I had to do that on my Strat to fit the pickup on the pickguard.

I’m a little surprised that the design of the Tripleplay doesn’t even allow an easy install on a Strat—maybe the most common style of electric guitar. It also does not fit on my SG because of the position of the pickup mounting ring:

I’m not sure which instruments Fishman had in mind when they designed this—definitely not a Fly. Oddly, the Fishman Tripleplay is removable, so they must have been thinking of an audience that would find the non-permanent installation appealing…but, antithetical to that idea, it seems to require physical modifications to your guitar.

Oof - Thanks for taking the hit on that one to enlighten the rest of us, VJ. I should disclaim that I always affix and set the height of my hex pickups with screws into the guitar body, even if I have to modify the pickup to make it work. The adhesive strips Roland and (I assume) Fishman include with their hex pickups have never worked for me, whether due to a carved top or a pickguard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the curvature of the Fly top is to blame. I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:02 pm I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

I was gonna ask you if that’s a thing that people do! Thanks—good to know! I did consider cutting the pickguard on my NiteFly a bit to make this work.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:02 pm Oof - Thanks for taking the hit on that one to enlighten the rest of us, VJ. I should disclaim that I always affix and set the height of my hex pickups with screws into the guitar body, even if I have to modify the pickup to make it work. The adhesive strips Roland and (I assume) Fishman include with their hex pickups have never worked for me, whether due to a carved top or a pickguard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the curvature of the Fly top is to blame. I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

Hey @mmmguitar,

I've read up more about the gk5 kit, it looks sick! From what I understood the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:52 am

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

So you mean that the 13-pin tech is worse than the new outjack from GK5 and thus this would output a better signal? That means all the 13pin technologies like RMC and Graphtechs would be outdated? Give they are 13pin based?

mmmguitar wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 11:52 am

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

KenanJ wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 4:56 am I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

From what you said and knwing the fact I have a pre refined fly with already drilled out gk holes and that I'm in europe the most cost/effectivness solution would the GK5 if it allows good tremolo action, so then I can also use your trick for the jack switch, but when losing the stereo capabilt If one have a device like a quad cortex I saw you can send stereo signals out so I guess the loss of the stereo output is not heavy deal?

KenanJ wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 4:59 am when losing the stereo capabilt If one have a device like a quad cortex I saw you can send stereo signals out so I guess the loss of the stereo output is not heavy deal?

Yes. It remains to be seen what stereo-routing options will be present/preserved in the new Boss unit (previous Roland/Boss guitar synth units had either dedicated or assignable outs which could be used to output magnetic and processed "acoustic" sounds in a mono/stereo setup - That and the broader variety of acoustic sounds are why I omitted the noisy Graph Tech Acousti-Phonic preamp from my Supreme.

Bumping in case anyone else is interested: Elantric at vguitarforums has confirmed that the GK5 internal kit's output wires terminate in a five pin quick-connect header (four conductors and a shield) purely for the sake of having a solderless way of connecting to a non-proprietary switching T/R/S Cliff/REAN jack (the kit's is PCB-mounted). What this means for Fly owners is that we can theoretically retrofit a single, switching output jack on the Fly which (likely with the requirement of a mag/mix/MIDI switch modified in the manner of the mag/mix/piezo preamp-bypass 4PDT switch mod) can bypass the GK board input to afford Fly owners "normal" switching (magnetic and piezo signals in summed mono or isolated stereo T/R/S) when running into a typical guitar rig, or sum them to mono on the GK5's digital "pin 7" equivalent (as the Mojo MIDI did) when running into a GK-serial device. For Fly owners who already have a secondary output hole routed for the 13 pin jack, they can simply use the stock GK internal kit as intended (a dual jack setup), or (even more simply) use the external A/D converter box if they're fine sticking with the 13 pin cable.

I'm inferring the output jack options from the following posts (some initial conjecture from Elantric concerning why Roland/Boss settled on the design that they did; and how it can be utilized):

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index ... #msg277969