Most trouble-free solution (tracking-wise) for guitar synth?

[mmmguitar]

I love everything about this post, @mmmguitar except that you have to wait! Sounds like that will be a great and very flexible rig!!!

Thanks. In the meantime, my wallet can be happy!

[Patzag]

Do tell ... where did you hear of that Roland unit? I'd like to read up on it.

[mmmguitar]

Do tell ... where did you hear of that Roland unit? I'd like to read up on it.

There's not much to read, as of yet. Elantric on vguitarforums began teasing it a few months ago [all subsequent quotes are taken from the same thread - I somehow user-errored my way into making all the subsequent post-specific hyperlinks fail].

I met with Boss Japan at 2024 Winter NAMM

In 2024 Boss will release a product with:

• Serial GK
• Guitar Modeling
• Pedal format

At the beginning of August, Elantric let us know that the unit's announcement had been delayed until 2025 Winter NAMM. When asked, "Can you say if the new box will also have any amp modeling or effects processing or is it literally a pedal, using serial GK and it models guitars?", Elantric replied

I can say its delayed because thay are adding more of what the current market needs to succeed

All based upon the current management, engineers, tasked to review the trends and user wishes posted here at VGUITARFORUMS.

We are winning

Zero 13 pin on new device

SERIAL GK Processors may be daisy chained using TRS cables

The last SERIAL GK Processor in signal chain will connect its Main Left, Right Stereo outputs to Amplification system, no other mixers required

My speculation is fueled by what I feel would make the most sense to include as a feature set in a product intended to be daisy-chained in tandem with the GM-800's feature set (so that neither is redundant to the other), what crumbs of information Elantric is allowed to share, and the various "wishlist" posts I've seen others make since the GT1000, GK5-external pickup, and GM-800 units were released (e.g., basically every guitar, pickup, effect, and amp-modeling feature conspicuously absent in the GM-800; which is more or less strictly for the triggering and sequencing of layered samples and MIDI conversion, rather than processing the hex pickup signal with DSP for lower latency sounds as the previous 13 pin units did).

[KenanJ]

What are you waiting from Roland ?

I'm waiting on their yet-to-be-announced outboard multi-FX floor unit for use with the GK5 hex pickup/onboard A/D converter preamp (which outputs a digital signal from the guitar via a twisted pair A2B cable with 1/4" T/R/S plugs). It will supposedly be similar to their GT-1000 unit, but with additional onboard guitar/pickup modeling for GK5-equipped guitars and basses (which is the main aspect I'm interested in; as it is now relegated to being the marketplace successor to the Line 6 Variax product line, since Yamaha discontinued it and Sim1 Guitar went out of business).

Because my rig has had a GR-55 at the front of it since its release in 2011, I'm hoping to finally be able to move on from 13 pin cables and, ideally, consolidate the guitar/bass rig to an all-digital one in which GK5-equipped instruments run into a pair of daisy-chained floor units (the unnamed one and the GM-800), then into a Macbook via USB. The goal is to cover as much ground as I can with one or two toys on the floor, and an expression pedal for each (I still have an Axe FX; should I need to cover even more ground).

The project Fly I have will essentially be a refinement of the Adrian Belew model for the "GK Serial" generation of gear - But that new unit is the final piece of the puzzle the project hinges on fitting; so I can't move forward with it until I have one on order.

It's such a great project, it's exactly what I would look for in a rig as well! Are you referring to the Boss GK5 pickup? I'm not very aware about those top mount pickups but what is the difference between Roland gk3 and boss gk5 and also I thought MIDI was essentially to transform you guitar signal to a signal that could be modified on the fly with modelers and such can you elaborate a bit more it seems so cool!

[mmmguitar]

Are you referring to the Boss GK5 pickup?

Yes - Specifically, the GK5-KIT-G6. Roland has made this extra-confusing in recent years; due to arbitrarily branding new releases "Roland" or "Boss" for marketing purposes. Everything in the GK-Serial generation seems to be "Boss" (for now).

what is the difference between Roland gk3 and boss gk5

The main difference is the analog-to-digital converter the GK5 has. The GK3 outputs an analog signal via CA-0842 shielded 13 conductor cable with DIN connectors (here are pin map illustration notes I made for Adrian Belew model specs, as an example - click to enlarge).

Unfortunately, there are some fidelity compromises inherent in the cable design, which players have endured as a necessary evil: It is a high impedance setup requiring buffering (with the guitar's magnetic pickup signal being severely downgraded during its trip down pin 7), the pins tend to oxidize within the first year of use, and movement at the socket can introduce a cacophony of unwanted noise into the signal, which is further exacerbated by accumulation of debris and the loosening of any connections. Roland having changed suppliers several times since 1989 has resulted in the only modern source of pro-grade 13 pin cables being third party suppliers (I just had to order a new one due to being down to my last Roland cable; which sounds like Mel Blanc impersonating Jack Benny's Maxwell Runabout.

Roland 13 pin synth units have A/D converters at the unit input (as we've come to expect of most modern guitar gear). The GK-serial/GK5 series deals with the above-mentioned issues by having the A/D converter as part of the pickup assembly, and outputting to a data cable. I previously appreciated having this option in my Variax instruments (which outputted to a Line 6 unit via Cat5e data cables).

I thought MIDI was essentially to transform you guitar signal to a signal that could be modified on the fly with modelers and such can you elaborate a bit more

The Roland/Boss-branded guitar synths and their accessories being referred to as "MIDI" is largely a misnomer: Though many of the units can output converted MIDI via 5 pin connections to other outboard gear which utilizes it, their original synthesizers utilized six monophonic, analog effects units for each string; which meant the "guitar synthesizer" had zero latency. The brand's modern approach to that end is affecting each isolated string signal with DSP while avoiding any unnecessary conversion (there is an in-depth input settings calibration process for each instrument you plug in to the unit, which is stored as a preset).

For the triggering of samples within the unit, however, there is a noticeable degree of latency, as well as the potential for note-mistriggering and pitch-tracking errors in the data conversion (garbage in, garbage out; with the previously mentioned input settings calibration process being for the sake of mitigating this) - However, Roland uses their own proprietary protocol for this sample-triggering conversion, which they claim is far more involved than MIDI. So, up until now, the trend has been for Roland guitar synths to have a sample-triggering side with latency and tracking issues (which the GM-800 represents), and a minimal latency, DSP Multi-FX side which models guitars, pickups, effects, and amplifiers (and which the mono-input GT1000 and the unannounced GK-serial unit represent).

Whether splitting that functionality between two, dedicated units pays off for Roland/Boss, we'll just have to wait and see - Their track record includes a number of blunders and consumer disappointments to do with specific features being conspicuously compromised or removed for the sake of hitting a price point. Even their best effort at a "kitchen sink" approach with the VG-99 - Considered by many to be the best guitar synth they ever released - was discontinued after two years, due to low sales.

[mmmguitar]

Bumping to link to some recent posts from the vguitarforums comparing MIDI conversion latency between the GK5+GM800 combo on firmware 1.10 and Fishman TriplePlay, for anyone considering either. The short of it is that the weakest link in the signal path remains the player.

[KenanJ]

Thanks @mmmguitar for sharing. Great content as always

[vjmanzo]

Inspired by this post and many others on this forum related to Flys with MIDI, I decided to get the brand new Fishman Triplelay Express USB-C and it has not been a good experience. I've been back and forth with Fishman support for about a week now, which has been great, but the product itself has been disappointing for me.

In short, 1) the adhesive of the bracket is not sticky enough to allow the actual sensor to sit in it and 2) it's too tall to fit under the strings of my Fly and NiteFly. Here's one of the videos I've sent to Fishman's support:



A few minutes after making this video, the bracket lifted again and now I have audible string buzz on open strings. Fishman was kind to send me some additional brackets, but I've now gone through four of them and they all do not stay stuck no matter how long I hold them in place—I think the contoured body of the Fly and the straight Tripleplay element are at odds.

Pardon the modest thread hijack, but all of this to say, @Jupiter, in my experience so far, I would not categorize the Fishman Tripleplay Express as a trouble-free solution for Flys or NiteFlys with low action as far as installation goes. I will likely try it on an SG or a Strat and get a sense of how the tracking goes.




::Update::

I tried ditching the bracket altogether and using Blu-Tack to hold the Tripleplay in place:

No luck! The Blu-Tak held like a champ, but the Tripleplay was still too tall for the Fly near the G and B strings, so while I was able to use the device to some degree, there was a considerable amount of string buzzing.

Fishman support said:

If the action on the guitar is low enough that the pickup by itself won't fit under the strings, then you really only have a couple options. You can either raise the action to get it to fit, or shim the neck to change the angle. I had to do that on my Strat to fit the pickup on the pickguard.

I’m a little surprised that the design of the Tripleplay doesn’t even allow an easy install on a Strat—maybe the most common style of electric guitar. It also does not fit on my SG because of the position of the pickup mounting ring:

I’m not sure which instruments Fishman had in mind when they designed this—definitely not a Fly. Oddly, the Fishman Tripleplay is removable, so they must have been thinking of an audience that would find the non-permanent installation appealing…but, antithetical to that idea, it seems to require physical modifications to your guitar.

[mmmguitar]

Oof - Thanks for taking the hit on that one to enlighten the rest of us, VJ. I should disclaim that I always affix and set the height of my hex pickups with screws into the guitar body, even if I have to modify the pickup to make it work. The adhesive strips Roland and (I assume) Fishman include with their hex pickups have never worked for me, whether due to a carved top or a pickguard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the curvature of the Fly top is to blame. I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

[vjmanzo]

I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

I was gonna ask you if that’s a thing that people do! Thanks—good to know! I did consider cutting the pickguard on my NiteFly a bit to make this work.

[KenanJ]

Oof - Thanks for taking the hit on that one to enlighten the rest of us, VJ. I should disclaim that I always affix and set the height of my hex pickups with screws into the guitar body, even if I have to modify the pickup to make it work. The adhesive strips Roland and (I assume) Fishman include with their hex pickups have never worked for me, whether due to a carved top or a pickguard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the curvature of the Fly top is to blame. I’m expecting to need to rout a flat shelf into the top of my project Fly when I install the GK5 pickup.

Hey @mmmguitar,

I've read up more about the gk5 kit, it looks sick! From what I understood the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

[mmmguitar]

the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

[KenanJ]

the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

So you mean that the 13-pin tech is worse than the new outjack from GK5 and thus this would output a better signal? That means all the 13pin technologies like RMC and Graphtechs would be outdated? Give they are 13pin based?

[KenanJ]

the output is a normal jack and then it can control 13pin devices right?

It's "normal" in that it utilizes 1/4" T/R/S plugs - but the new jack is not "normal" in its output (It's digital-only). Those of us at the vguitarforums who had been awaiting the GK-5 internal kit's finalized specs for release were disappointed to find that the design Roland settled on required a separate 1/4" jack for the analog/magnetic guitar signal output (rather than the changeover relay suggested). The project Fly I intend to put a GK-5 kit in will have two jacks for analog and digital-out, due to already having an extra hole from the GK-3 kit's jack.

I *suspect* that I can replace the GK-5 output jack with a switching one to achieve an end similar to the changeover relay proposed above - But I won't know until I've gotten my hands on one.

I wonder if one could be able to use a prerefined fly, remove the pcb and make a belew-ish with gk5 and sustainiac, givin the space that would be freed, and use synth modeler for "piezo" accoustic tone.

That's what I did with my Supreme, and what I intend to do with the GK-5 kits. For 13 pin setups, the main advantage the RMC PolyDrive has over others is that its piezo preamp is powered by the guitar synth it's plugged in to. The tradeoff is that it loses stereo functionality. But the prospect of a new guitar synth setup free from those infuriating, tone-killing, microphonic 13 pin cables in use since 1989 is what wins me over.

From what you said and knwing the fact I have a pre refined fly with already drilled out gk holes and that I'm in europe the most cost/effectivness solution would the GK5 if it allows good tremolo action, so then I can also use your trick for the jack switch, but when losing the stereo capabilt If one have a device like a quad cortex I saw you can send stereo signals out so I guess the loss of the stereo output is not heavy deal?

[mmmguitar]

when losing the stereo capabilt If one have a device like a quad cortex I saw you can send stereo signals out so I guess the loss of the stereo output is not heavy deal?

Yes. It remains to be seen what stereo-routing options will be present/preserved in the new Boss unit (previous Roland/Boss guitar synth units had either dedicated or assignable outs which could be used to output magnetic and processed "acoustic" sounds in a mono/stereo setup - That and the broader variety of acoustic sounds are why I omitted the noisy Graph Tech Acousti-Phonic preamp from my Supreme.

[mmmguitar]

Bumping in case anyone else is interested: Elantric at vguitarforums has confirmed that the GK5 internal kit's output wires terminate in a five pin quick-connect header (four conductors and a shield) purely for the sake of having a solderless way of connecting to a non-proprietary switching T/R/S Cliff/REAN jack (the kit's is PCB-mounted). What this means for Fly owners is that we can theoretically retrofit a single, switching output jack on the Fly which (likely with the requirement of a mag/mix/MIDI switch modified in the manner of the mag/mix/piezo preamp-bypass 4PDT switch mod) can bypass the GK board input to afford Fly owners "normal" switching (magnetic and piezo signals in summed mono or isolated stereo T/R/S) when running into a typical guitar rig, or sum them to mono on the GK5's digital "pin 7" equivalent (as the Mojo MIDI did) when running into a GK-serial device. For Fly owners who already have a secondary output hole routed for the 13 pin jack, they can simply use the stock GK internal kit as intended (a dual jack setup), or (even more simply) use the external A/D converter box if they're fine sticking with the 13 pin cable.

I'm inferring the output jack options from the following posts (some initial conjecture from Elantric concerning why Roland/Boss settled on the design that they did; and how it can be utilized):

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index ... #msg277969

[mmmguitar]

Bump:

Boss VG-800 officially announced, NDA amongst testers and consultants lifted at 0000 Jan 16, Eastern Standard Time:

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index ... ic=38100.0

It's essentially a Guitar Modeling processor front end on a GT-1000Core

(click to enlarge)

Per Roland, dealers are expected to begin receiving stock on February 5th (Update: As of February 16th, only Asian and EU dealers and customers have received units - US dealers are still quoting February 21st as the first shipment for preorders; with a second shipment expected in April). Current quoted shipping date from retailers is a less optimistic February 21st. Update: As of the 9th, the shipping date of the 21st still hasn't changed.

Random specs I'll be highlighting as I learn more:
-1/8" (3.5mm) MIDI I/O in addition to USB-C channels
-Mono 1/4" (6.35mm) guitar input for non-hexaphonic MFX and amp modeling; so non-GK-equipped instruments can be used
-Stereo FX loops
-Two EXP/CTRL T/R/S jacks
-On the amp modeling side, it allows IR loading and uses Roland's current gen AIRD amp and speaker sims. The latest GK serial device firmware update for the GM800 allows the GK I/O to carry stereo inputs from one unit to the next in the daisy chain via the one T/R/S cable carrying simultaneous digital channels (eliminating the 13 pin generation's need for mixers or additional cable snaking/signal splitting hardware when using two or more units).

It's about what I expected; being the GK Serial successor to the VG-99, but splitting functionality between the VG-800 and GM-800 units. There might not be enough new features to entice SY-1000 owners who got their most recent firmware update in October (I've been using the GR-55 since 2011; and am ready to replace it).

I'll be purchasing a unit and GKCAD interface to test and report on, before I go encouraging 13-pin Fly owners to upgrade. I'm hoping to be satisfied enough to begin gradually migrating all my 13 pin-equipped instruments to the GK Serial internal A/D converter, until I can finally leave that high impedance, tone-sucking, microphonic 1989 DIN technology behind.

Thoughts from skimming the manual(s):

It's good to see that the unit's input settings have backwards-compatible presets for the GK-2, 3, GC-1 Strat, and all manner of piezo-fed 13 pin systems (such as the GraphTech Hexpander or RMC PolyDrive) - This means that a GKC-AD converter box and T/R/S patch cable is all that's required to use the GK Serial units; with no modifications to 13 pin-equipped Parkers of any era necessary.

You can now adjust the EQ of the modeled pickups by shelves to re-voice them - This was a feature I had felt was sorely lacking in the Variax editing software, and affirms my decision to hold off on replacing the pickups in my Steinberger. You can use this feature to more accurately voice presets modeling a particular pickup, or replicating the idiosyncrasies of the pickups in your guitar before you use the unit to change tunings or otherwise tweak the sounds (e.g., tweaking the output gain of the pickup in ways you normally couldn't with passive ones dialed in to optimal distance from the strings without rewinding them).

One remarkable feature is to have the unit switch modeled guitar/pickup sounds depending where on the neck you're playing. Players such as Steve Morse and Yngwie Malmsteen built their styles around switching between the neck and bridge pickups according to which register they're playing in; and this will allow me to experiment more in that vein without requiring a calibrated pickup set as they do. It's similarly cool that you can assign a controller to shift the pitch of individual strings in the glissando manner of a B-bender or Steve Vai's "joint shifting" technique.

As many seem to be, I'm disappointed by how relatively few guitar models, amps, and FX were included/retained from previous GR and VG iterations. It seems apparent that Roland engineered the unit to meet a price point, rather than consumer demands. Knowing that dealers were the ones polled for features explains a lot.

Update: Here's a NAMM demo showing the various guitar/bass/synth models in the unit in Guitar mode (not shown are the bass models specific to Bass mode). This is all hexaphonic DSP (no MIDI, no latency).



I'm mostly underwhelmed by what Roland/BOSS has included in the unit - It's 99% stuff they've done before, and I know from the company's track record to not expect more than bug fixes in subsequent firmware updates. Though the upside in the relative lack of surprises is that I'm confident it will all work quite well, the only feature I'm truly excited to test is the hexaphonic (or heptaphonic, if you have a seven string guitar and GK pickup) re-amp feature (described on page 48 of the parameters guide) - That has game-changing implications: By laying down dry tracks of the unprocessed string signals in your DAW via using the VG-800 as the USB interface, you can theoretically process them together or one at a time. This opens guitar tracking possibilities up to what has exclusively been the realm of MIDI-triggered VST instruments.

[vjmanzo]

I'll be purchasing a unit and GKCAD interface to test and report on, before I go encouraging 13-pin Fly owners to upgrade.

Thanks for this update, Marc! I’ve very curious to hear your thoughts as they develop, so thanks for keeping us in the loop!

[billy]

Thanks so much for all this info. I have always been interested in using midi guitar but I know that it would be a deep, deep rabbit hole for me. Probably not going there anytime soon but bookmarking for when I do.

[mmmguitar]

Thanks so much for all this info. I have always been interested in using midi guitar but I know that it would be a deep, deep rabbit hole for me. Probably not going there anytime soon but bookmarking for when I do.

What's funny about the Roland stuff is that there's actually no MIDI unless you're using the converter function to output to an outboard synth or DAW, or using an outboard controller for parameter changes (even their PCM-triggering synths use a proprietary command language in place of MIDI). In this respect, the VG-800 is more of a successor to the Antares ATG-1 or RackVax than it is the legacy "VG" series guitar synths. So, while I expect many pre-existing VG-99 enthusiasts or SY-1000 owners will feel let down by the new "VG"-branded toy, it seems like Roland/Boss intend for it to be a gateway drug into the world of MIDI guitar.

Update: Roland/BOSS published a "Its not MIDI" article ahead of the VG-800 release:
https://articles.boss.info/the-v-guitar ... ic-guitar/