Most trouble-free solution (tracking-wise) for guitar synth?

[mmmguitar]

Bump. Due to shenanigans with Sweetwater Sound documented on the vguitarforum, my acquisition of the VG-800 was delayed by a few days. In the meantime, I scored an awesome deal on a GM-800 and GK5 internal kit; and can finally contribute some thoughts about the tracking and MIDI conversion of the GM, compared to my old GR-55:

Prior to this latest hardware series from Roland/BOSS, the GK input settings for their guitar synths required tedious trial and error to set up for even basic use. In the case of the GR-55 (which I've been using since its release in 2011 or so), you had to pick your poison concerning whether you intended to use the unit primarily for COSM (DSP guitar modeling and alternate tunings, in addition to a software emulation of the old GR-300 synth), PCM triggering (playing the unit's onboard, sample-based "synth" sounds which include basic waveforms), or MIDI conversion for outboard processing. You effectively required three GK SETTING presets per instrument to switch between in order to achieve optimal performance in those three areas with the one unit.

In other words, the open secret to do with guitar synthesizers of even the very recent past is that they were in no way user-friendly, much less "plug and play."

For many of us, this raised the question of 'Why have three disparate functions in a single unit, if it can effectively perform only one of them at a time?." The hardware reason is that using a single, 13 pin DIN-outfitted guitar to control more than one 13 pin-fed unit at a time required an additional, powered buffering circuit for its all-analog signal (the A/D conversion was done only at the input stage of the outboard processing unit). The consequence of this design was that, if you were to endeavor to build a 13 pin setup around single, dedicated guitar modeling, PCM-triggering, or MIDI-converting units, an additional pair of powered signal splitters would be required. And, so, rather than attempt to include these things packed into one box (or sold as modular units), Roland/BOSS has historically elected to utilize global GK-input settings in a preset capacity (in the case of the GR-55, there were 10 "GK SETTING" presets available). For those of us who had multiple guitars with GK, Graph Tech, and RMC pickups outputting hexaphonic signals in the 13 pin format, those 10 preset blocks on the unit filled up rather quickly.

Another tactic Roland has historically employed and stuck with is the master-of-none approach to marketing their guitar synths as "kitchen sink" units: Though none of Roland's onboard DSP or PCM-triggering functions require MIDI, competitors such as Axon incentivized Roland to include MIDI conversion in an afterthought capacity which has, unfortunately, left owners underwhelmed for decades; and resulted in negative word-of-mouth amongst musicians curious to dip their toes into the misnomered world that is "MIDI Guitar". Even in the case of former flagship units such as the VG-99, the MIDI conversion was largely regarded as inferior to dedicated contemporary units from Axon (despite the Roland GI-20 proving they could do it well when they want). The guitar modeling of the VG-99 was regarded as inferior to a dedicated modeler such as the Line 6 Variax, and even owners who had migrated from the VG-8 (released in 1995) managed to find the legacy PCMs and models carried over to subsequent units underwhelming (often complaining that they exhibited inferior tracking or artifact-free performance and/or fidelity within a band mix).

Unfortunately, the marketplace failure of the VG-99 and VB-99 resulted in Roland including fewer and fewer legacy models, samples, and effects in subsequent units engineered primarily for a price point (with specs decided upon by the consensus of polled dealers, rather than enthusiasts). This way of going about determining feature sets for the sake of not repeating the "mistake" of including so many features in the "99" series resulted in my sticking with the GR-55 for fourteen years (though including small QOL improvements, the GP-10 and SY-1000 relatively limited feature sets meant that they simply failed to fill the 55's niche within my rig).

So, when Roland/BOSS announced the GK-Serial format (utilizing an onboard A/D converter on the guitar)) and a modular hardware approach which took advantage of the digital signal format to afford the daisy-chaining of dedicated units (and, consequently, finally allowing set-and-forget optimized input settings) - in addition to allowing adopters to finally abandon the microphonic and signal-degrading 13 pin DIN cables -, I felt immense relief. I'm happy to say that the GM-800 (tested with the latest 1.20 firmware; because it's required to interface with the VG-800) exceeds all expectations.

The technology isn't perfect - But it's leaps and bounds above the headaches those of us who used older Roland units were accustomed to dealing with: The surface-level input settings consist of selecting the transducer type before setting input sensitivity with an intuitive level meter for each string (with more extensive options for dialing things in via velocity curve thresholds available when needed). After investing mere moments into dialing in the unit's input sensitivity to each string's transducer, I had achieved satisfactory tracking. Presto!

To demonstrate some of what I described above, I recorded a simple demo of myself playing a short vamp through

-the GR-55's COSM guitar model,
-outputting the converted MIDI data to trigger the Wurlitzer E-piano model in Garageband I selected for no particular reason,
-through unoptimized settings; to demonstrate how crucial function-dedicated input settings were within in the older units if you had any hope at all of playing more than poorly-tracked gibberish (I used the COSM-optimized input settings preset; rather than the MIDI output-optimized preset). Using the wrong settings results in a ton of dropped and hanging notes.
-I then demonstrate the GR-55's onboard Wurlitzer sample (which was considered antiquated even in 2011), before
-showing off the updated model, tracking, and conversion of the GM-800. I also play a series of hammer-ons up a fret at a time to demonstrate all the tracking artifacts which come with it.



To keep it on-brand for this site, I recorded with the RMC Fly saddles and PolyDrive preamp in my Adrian Belew Fly. Per Steve Conrad (Elantric of VGuitarforums), a GK-5 or potted GK-3 hex magnetic pickup (through the GKC-AD converter) is currently the best-performing transducer to pair with the new units. I have no complaints specific to the RMC system - The nature of the beast is that piezo-fed 13 pin systems will inherently exhibit some crosstalk artifacts requiring mitigation via the hexaphonic processor's input sensitivity settings.

Speaking of the Fly: I'll be working through some GK-5 pickup installations in the coming months, leading up to deciding how best to incorporate/fit it into my project '97 Fly Deluxe. Even if that wasn’t an option, I'm happy to report that existing Flys with GK-3 or piezo-fed 13 pin-outs are capable of performing well with the new Roland/BOSS units via the GKC-AD converter (and the new units have input settings specifically for them). This means Fly owners can happily join me in enjoying these new toys - even if you don't share my eagerness to leave the 13 pin cables behind.

The guitar may never be an ideal controller for such devices (garbage in; garbage out, and all that). That said: Where the performance of many of the GR-55's functions failed to inspire confidence sufficient for playing out live with it, the GM-800’s comparative performance improvements make me grin, knowing how much of the previous struggle seems to have finally fallen by the wayside.

[vjmanzo]

This is such a great post, Marc!!! Thanks for the terrific summary of this aspect of the MIDI-guitar terrain—I’m so happy to hear your good experience with this new unit! I’ve been thinking about this again recently for one of my guitars, and this post is inspiring! Thanks for making that video too!!! Amazing (and great playing by the way!)!!

I’m all ears as you continue toward installing the GK-5 on your ‘97 Fly!!!

[mmmguitar]

I remain thankful and embarrassed for all the inexorable kindness and encouragement heaped upon me by @vjmanzo.

I received the VG-800 earlier today and; now that I've played through all the presets and toyed around with assigning various controls to various effects, I intend to type up an even bigger wall of text highlighting some of what's jumped out at me. At the moment, my head is still buzzing with possibilities afforded by the combination of the two units which I've never before had the luxury of considering; and it's going to be some difficult fun to convey and demonstrate (one thing I'll tease is that I'm currently inspired to rack my brain recalling songs utilizing six instrument tracks).

Unless someone on the vguitarforums documents it first, it will be some time before I'm able to delve in and share my conclusions with modifying the GK5-KIT-6 to swap between analog and digital outputs using a single jack (At a the moment, it's seeming that a secondary 4PDT switch will be sufficient). My first GK-5 project will be a Steinberger utilizing only the GK pickup, the second will be a Strandberg with the switching jack modification I described, and the third will be the project Fly hopefully applying whatever I've learned from the previous two installations.

This time last year, my intent was to ape the Belew Fly by putting a RMC PolyDrive in it - I'm indebted to Steve/Elantric at the vguitarforums for enticing me to wait with whatever crumbs pertaining to the VG-800's development he was able to share without violating any NDAs.

On a third note: Though I didn't do more than fit the unconnected parts, I somewhat confirmed that a Fly outfitted with basic, shallow potentiometers (i.e., no switching, push-pull, or dual-gang pots with tall housings) *appears* to have sufficient room for the GK-5 mainboard to fit in the control cavity when adhered to the rear cover, with no extra routing required (unfortunately, the GK5 pickup itself still requires the three holes drilled for mounting and snaking its wire bundle through to the control cavity).

I mention this on the off chance that anyone considering a VG-800 unit might also be considering modifying their Fly's wiring. The options afforded by the VG-800 are quite beyond the onboard piezo preamps seen during the Parker Guitars production history: You can pan individual strings within the stereo field, have Nylon and Bronze Fly tones sound simultaneously in addition to your mono magnetic pickup signal, and control the blend between them via assigning the function to the GK pot or momentary switch on the guitar (or an expression pedal, foot switch, MIDI controller connected to the processor, etc.).

[Patzag]

You are starting to rekindle my old love for guitar synth. I have a long history with guitar synthesizers, which ended after the GR 30. Mostly I got tired of modifying my guitars and I couldn't stand making holes in my beautiful Parkers. But maybe, just maybe, there might be a way back. The posts above our tantalizing.

[mmmguitar]

Thanks, @Patzag. I'm merely in the honeymoon period with the quality-of-life improvements afforded by these new toys after finally upgrading from older tech with more obvious flaws. Though I'm sure I'll elaborate more in a subsequent post, some downsides with the new gear which immediately come to mind include:

-The GM800's "ZEN-Core" synth architecture has a subscription-based business model for editing sounds they've dubbed "ZENology": That is, within the unit itself, they're edited in much the same way as the "baked-in" PCM samples on the GR-55 were - But if you want to edit more deeply and create original, "off-the-menu" sounds, that's a separate service Roland employs for the sake of recouping R&D costs. Because ZEN-Core is Roland's current gen synth engine, it's limited in this way across all their current synth products (I've been using their AE-30 EWI to practice sax, trumpet, and flute for the past year and; so, was already acquainted with a number of the ZEN-Core sounds and feature-limited options included in the GM-800).

- The GM-800 is limited to processing five MIDI instrument tracks simultaneously: Four melodic, and one drum track. However, this particular limit is baked into the ZEN-Core synth architecture; and guitarists who were expecting six tracks (one per string) are left out in the cold until Roland decides to increase that track limit in their next generation of synth tech. One workaround is that the GM-800 will output 6 MIDI channels of guitar to synth modules which can use it.

The vguitarforums are very helpful for navigating perceived roadblocks associated with the ZEN-Core limitations: I recently learned there are functional on/off MIDI CC#s conspicuously omitted from the GM-800 manual; ostensibly because Roland/BOSS wants owners to assume they must resort to signing up for a free trial of the subscription service to access all "deep-editing" parameters.

- Another "wait and see" issue is the I/O headaches popping up now that people are discovering that the GM-800 and VG-800 aren't interfacing in ways they had expected: The "smart switching" TRS FX loop jacks on the VG-800 seemingly result in being unable to utilize the FX Return as an AUX-IN unless you have a dummy plug inserted into the SEND jack. Oddly enough, I recently read of a user mitigating this issue by disabling a GK-Serial SEND setting when using the two units in tandem - So I'm hoping this means it can be corrected with a subsequent firmware update.

I'm sure I'll discover more to nitpick - I thought it might be helpful to alleviate some of the GAS I caused .

[Patzag]

Thanks, @Patzag. I'm merely in the honeymoon period with the quality-of-life improvements afforded by these new toys after finally upgrading from older tech with more obvious flaws. Though I'm sure I'll elaborate more in a subsequent post, some downsides with the new gear which immediately come to mind include:

-The GM800's "ZEN-Core" synth architecture has a subscription-based business model for editing sounds they've dubbed "ZENology": That is, within the unit itself, they're edited in much the same way as the "baked-in" PCM samples on the GR-55 were - But if you want to edit more deeply and create original, "off-the-menu" sounds, that's a separate service Roland employs for the sake of recouping R&D costs. Because ZEN-Core is Roland's current gen synth engine, it's limited in this way across all their current synth products (I've been using their AE-30 EWI to practice sax, trumpet, and flute for the past year and; so, was already acquainted with a number of the ZEN-Core sounds and feature-limited options included in the GM-800).

- The GM-800 is limited to processing five MIDI instrument tracks simultaneously: Four melodic, and one drum track. However, this particular limit is baked into the ZEN-Core synth architecture; and guitarists who were expecting six tracks (one per string) are left out in the cold until Roland decides to increase that track limit in their next generation of synth tech. One workaround is that the GM-800 will output 6 MIDI channels of guitar to synth modules which can use it.

The vguitarforums are very helpful for navigating perceived roadblocks associated with the ZEN-Core limitations: I recently learned there are functional on/off MIDI CC#s conspicuously omitted from the GM-800 manual; ostensibly because Roland/BOSS wants owners to assume they must resort to signing up for a free trial of the subscription service to access all "deep-editing" parameters.

- Another "wait and see" issue is the I/O headaches popping up now that people are discovering that the GM-800 and VG-800 aren't interfacing in ways they had expected: The "smart switching" TRS FX loop jacks on the VG-800 seemingly result in being unable to utilize the FX Return as an AUX-IN unless you have a dummy plug inserted into the SEND jack. Oddly enough, I recently read of a user mitigating this issue by disabling a GK-Serial SEND setting when using the two units in tandem - So I'm hoping this means it can be corrected with a subsequent firmware update.

I'm sure I'll discover more to nitpick - I thought it might be helpful to alleviate some of the GAS I caused .

Thank you. I feel adequately deflated!

[KenanJ]

First of all thank for the great follow-up @mmmguitar, it's always a pelasure to read you.

From what I understood, it's totally gournd breaking to be able to fully synthétize the guitar with simply this unit and the GK5 pickup, but I don't see how it would fit in a normal parker, wouldn't it be more simple to tear down the parker system and add classic magnetic pickup and the gk system? Since this is caable of emulating accoustic tones whats the point of the piezo? Maybe blending in magnetic plus piezo but the new unit seem to be able to do it.

Plus how this unit could work with an axe fx? I own an axe fx 2 which I love and i'd like to keep it and see how can I add the GM800 to the signal chain.

Thanks again for relaunching the race to find a beat up parker and mod it lol.

[mmmguitar]

wouldn't it be more simple to tear down the parker system and add classic magnetic pickup and the gk system?

Yes - That's essentially what I'm doing with my project Fly. In my case, I'll have to rout a separate cavity for the GK5 board on the other side of the trem spring. But I mentioned the control cavity space detail just in case anyone considering such a mod was curious - These new, internal kit GK-5 boards are so much larger than the previous iteration that there's little chance of them fitting in most guitar control cavities (there's a possibility that I won't even be able to fit one in my Strandberg). I expect most Strat owners will rout or chisel out a space under their pickguards to accommodate them, and everyone else will have to pay someone to rout out a space on the back and fabricate a cover for it. The big electronics cavities on Flys and Aristides are probably the only ones with enough room that owners won't have to cut a big rectangle into their guitar.

Plus how this unit could work with an axe fx? I own an axe fx 2 which I love and i'd like to keep it and see how can I add the GM800 to the signal chain.

Since 2017, my rig signal path has been

Guitar > GR-55 Guitar-Out to main input of Axe-FX II XL+ > GR-55 stereo synth-outs to Axe FX effect loop returns (to be queued up in any preset utilizing them) > Axe FX USB I/O to DAW for recording and guitar re-amping, with Axe FX SPDIF connected to secondary DAW hardware interface for monitoring DAW playback routed through the AXE FX USB.

I use an old Line 6 HD500 (leftover from my 2010-15 rig) as a MIDI floorboard controller for the Axe FX to change presets, scenes, and trigger the looper functions.

Though I'll yet be experimenting with the signal routing between the two units until I settle on a preference, the GM-800+VG-800 combo is essentially replacing the GR-55 (down to the I/O remaining the same in my Axe FX presets), while also affording streamlined music production via 5 channel MIDI-output from the DAW to the GM-800 (something I soon hope to demonstrate in a subsequent post) and the option to consolidate many of the Axe FX's functions to the VG-800's amp and FX blocks borrowed from the BOSS GT-1000CORE, where applicable.

The Axe FX is an altogether different beast, which does plenty that the BOSS units can't compete with; because they weren't designed to - So I regard the units as specialized DAW interfaces which can be chained together as needed for guitar signal processing I'm guilty of hoping will be difficult for people to wrap their heads around: There was a point in my experimentation with the new rig where it dawned on me that I was using a home guitar setup to control seven software instruments at once, in real time - limited only by the amount of available controls i could assign to various functions -, and barely scratching the surface of what I could use such an absurd degree of signal-routing flexibility and processing power for. [ILLUSTRATED TWO POSTS DOWN]


For now, the only change I foresee making to this rig is replacing the Axe FX with a Mk.IV iteration and a proper foot controller once it crosses Cliff Chase's mind that he could stand to have a lot more money. I could also see incorporating a subtractive synthesis unit successor to the SY-1000 utilizing the GK-Serial connection (which I suspect Roland/BOSS of intending to release in a year or two).

Thanks again for relaunching the race to find a beat up parker and mod it lol.

Happy to be the devil on your shoulder.

[KenanJ]

Dang! I'm still trying to understand your signal chain lol.
I think you should do a conf call or a live or something to explain it, it's really good information that sometimes it's a bit hard to read through. Maybe because I'm not a native english speaker.

Bit honestly BOSS is really messing me up with its unit like the SY1000 is the predecessor of the GM800 or are those different units?

I don't see why it's a problem to use GM8000 for dry tone sim and then use this dry to pass i through the AXE FX and enjoy all the amp/cab sims and modulation? Or maybe I'm missing something.

When I think of parler fly innovation it's really sad they don't exist anymore I think they would have done great woth this new gen of synth guitars...

[mmmguitar]

Dang! I'm still trying to understand your signal chain lol.

I'm still wrapping my head around it, myself. It really comes down to whichever unit is last in the signal chain outputting everything via USB (with re-amping/re-processing options also available via USB, depending on which job I want a given unit to perform).

w/ Axe FX (click to enlarge):

w/o Axe FX:

There are more possibilities available than those two arrangements - But those are the two I've been experimenting with.

Bit honestly BOSS is really messing me up with its unit like the SY1000 is the predecessor of the GM800 or are those different units?

They're different units: The SY-1000 represents the final GK-13 (13 pin) product developed and; though it includes features from its GR-55 and GP-10 predecessors, what distinguishes it from other Roland/BOSS guitar synths is its subtractive synthesis:



The GM-800 is a sample-triggering "synth" which processes the inputted signal hexaphonically (or heptaphonically; if you have a seven string guitar with the GK5-KIT-7 pickup) to trigger four melodic voice samples and a drum track. It also converts MIDI quite well; and can output MIDI channels for each guitar string for those wishing to edit them in a DAW with virtual instrument plugins. The main appeal of the GM-800 is that it gives guitarists access to Roland's current, flagship ZENCore synth engine, which keyboardists and EWI players have been using.

One reason why so many SY-1000 owners are disappointed with the current GK Serial product offerings is that each one is in some ways redundant to the SY-1000's feature set, while also conspicuously omitting the subtractive synth engine. Because the VG-800 has the features which were conspicuously absent from the GM-800, I expect there will be a GK Serial successor to the SY-1000.

I don't see why it's a problem to use GM8000 for dry tone sim and then use this dry to pass i through the AXE FX and enjoy all the amp/cab sims and modulation? Or maybe I'm missing something.

You wouldn't be able to route a dry guitar signal through the GM-800 and output it to the Axe FX - It would require a VG-800 unit or a 13 pin pickup feeding a GKC-AD with its "Guitar Out" jack (pin 7-breakout) outputting to the main Instrument Input on the Axe FX:

The GM-800 doesn't process or throughput guitar signal, or even external audio - Only hexaphonic GK Serial data and MIDI. If you were to pair it with a VG-800, you could route the stereo mix of the VG-800 output through to the D/A stereo-outs of the GM-800 - But there is no external audio I/O other than routing the unit's digital output through GK Serial (to another GK Serial unit) or via USB to a host computer, and you can't output the GM-800 to the Guitar-In of any outboard gear unless your goal is to run the synth sounds through guitar amps and effects.

When I think of parler fly innovation it's really sad they don't exist anymore I think they would have done great woth this new gen of synth guitars...

I agree; and that's why I intend to make an updated version (despite the job being easier to do with a different style of guitar).

[mmmguitar]

As mentioned previously, the ability to trigger four polyphonic voices and a drum track in the GM-800 via outboard MIDI sequences inputted via either traditional 5 pin DIN or USB is something I enjoy playing around with. Unfortunately, the onboard sounds of the unit are rather underwhelming when compared to modern VST or AU plugins (according to testimonials from other GM-800 owners, the key to achieving pro-level fidelity is to purchase dedicated sample packs from Roland on an as-needed basis, then fine-tune them to your liking). So, in an attempt to level the playing field, I decided to rout the MIDI tracks from a Guitar Pro file through free GarageBand stuff and the GM-800 for the sake of contrasting the two options, along with some noodly guitar parts played over it through the VG-800. The demos are presented warts-and-all to emphasize the quirks each approach exhibits when processing MIDI (elaborated upon below).

Though the VG-800 is played throughout the tracks, I cue up an image of the GM-800 any time I cut to the other instruments' MIDI sequencing being played through it (rather than GarageBand VSTs).



The first song is "The Cosmic Calendar" by Buckethead/The Dragons of Eden, selected for the sake of demonstrating a track with rock-n-roll quartet instrumentation. When I was trying to recall songs with an appropriate number of non-guitar instruments for demonstrating the GM-800, this was one of the first to come to mind (having drums, bass, electric piano, organ, and cello). However, I ended up deciding that the cello track didn't contribute very much; and instead filled its space with an indulgent guitar synth solo.



The second track is "Echidna's Arf of You" by Frank Zappa, selected for the sake of demonstrating stuff you'd be hard-pressed to get bandmates to rehearse or perform with you for free. Because the track emphasizes orchestration between saxophone, marimba, and keyboard, I feel the instrumentation better lends itself to demonstrating the GM-800's strengths than the previous track (i.e., it doesn't sound *as* bad )

Between the GM-800 and the DAW virtual instrument-triggering, they each have their own quirks to compensate for (e.g., the GM-800 seems to receive "vibrato" messages as NOTE OFF commands, and GarageBand and its plugins don't really afford much dynamic distinction between note velocities until you get above the "forte" level; at which point they seem to BOOM in an unpleasant manner). In the Zappa track, the GM800's dropped notes resulted in some of my guitar parts being a 16th note off in spots, despite being in sync when played against the VST track produced with the same MIDI data - So the verdict there is that preproduction time is required to ensure the MIDI sequencing doesn't contain anything the GM800 and/or outboard DAW VSTs are confused to receive as input. Again, I've tried to include all the artifacts and other weirdness for the sake of an accurate impression (even if that impression is that the track is suddenly underwater ).

So far, I'm finding the GM-800's sample library best-suited for playing keys, mallets, synths, and general electronic sounds. The bass guitar samples produced by both it and the VSTs are downright abysmal; and it bothers me enough that I'll likely return to the tracks to record real bass. The passable drum track I can get via a free Steven Slate plugin puts the limited palette of kits included in the GM-800 to shame. The next time I work up the nerve to annoy my neighbors, I'll trigger the GM-800's drum samples with the MIDI-out of my E-kit; to see if the human element can manage to make up enough difference to render it more useful.

[KenanJ]

Dang! I'm still trying to understand your signal chain lol.

I'm still wrapping my head around it, myself. It really comes down to whichever unit is last in the signal chain outputting everything via USB (with re-amping/re-processing options also available via USB, depending on which job I want a given unit to perform).

w/ Axe FX (click to enlarge):


rig 1.jpg


w/o Axe FX:


rig 2.jpg


There are more possibilities available than those two arrangements - But those are the two I've been experimenting with.

Bit honestly BOSS is really messing me up with its unit like the SY1000 is the predecessor of the GM800 or are those different units?

They're different units: The SY-1000 represents the final GK-13 (13 pin) product developed and; though it includes features from its GR-55 and GP-10 predecessors, what distinguishes it from other Roland/BOSS guitar synths is its subtractive synthesis:



The GM-800 is a sample-triggering "synth" which processes the inputted signal hexaphonically (or heptaphonically; if you have a seven string guitar with the GK5-KIT-7 pickup) to trigger four melodic voice samples and a drum track. It also converts MIDI quite well; and can output MIDI channels for each guitar string for those wishing to edit them in a DAW with virtual instrument plugins. The main appeal of the GM-800 is that it gives guitarists access to Roland's current, flagship ZENCore synth engine, which keyboardists and EWI players have been using.

One reason why so many SY-1000 owners are disappointed with the current GK Serial product offerings is that each one is in some ways redundant to the SY-1000's feature set, while also conspicuously omitting the subtractive synth engine. Because the VG-800 has the features which were conspicuously absent from the GM-800, I expect there will be a GK Serial successor to the SY-1000.

I don't see why it's a problem to use GM8000 for dry tone sim and then use this dry to pass i through the AXE FX and enjoy all the amp/cab sims and modulation? Or maybe I'm missing something.

You wouldn't be able to route a dry guitar signal through the GM-800 and output it to the Axe FX - It would require a VG-800 unit or a 13 pin pickup feeding a GKC-AD with its "Guitar Out" jack (pin 7-breakout) outputting to the main Instrument Input on the Axe FX:

The GM-800 doesn't process or throughput guitar signal, or even external audio - Only hexaphonic GK Serial data and MIDI. If you were to pair it with a VG-800, you could route the stereo mix of the VG-800 output through to the D/A stereo-outs of the GM-800 - But there is no external audio I/O other than routing the unit's digital output through GK Serial (to another GK Serial unit) or via USB to a host computer, and you can't output the GM-800 to the Guitar-In of any outboard gear unless your goal is to run the synth sounds through guitar amps and effects.

When I think of parler fly innovation it's really sad they don't exist anymore I think they would have done great woth this new gen of synth guitars...

I agree; and that's why I intend to make an updated version (despite the job being easier to do with a different style of guitar).

So as of now, you need yo use the SY1000 WITH the GM800 or you can use the GM800 alone?, I see the SY1000 problem is to use the converter if you have a setup with the GK5 pickup right?

As far as I understand, the GM800 is a standalone unit on itself but when pairing with the axe FX you can have 2 output? One axe fx output for guitar parts and one for synth parts right?

[mmmguitar]

So as of now, you need yo use the SY1000 WITH the GM800 or you can use the GM800 alone?

If you're referring to using the GM-800 with an Axe FX, you're correct about needing either a secondary unit or at least one converter to be able to output a dry guitar signal to the instrument input of the Axe FX in a single cable setup - The GM-800 was designed around a two cable, parallel setup in which the player has a normal cable running from their instrument's normal jack to the their guitar rig, and an external GK-5 pickup with its GK-Serial cable running to the GM-800.

Because all my guitars have 13 pin-outs, if I was using only the GM-800 with the Axe FX, for example, then the GKC-AD converter I use has a dedicated Guitar-Out for running the GM-800 and Axe FX in parallel (with the GM-800 synth output being able to be routed into the Axe FX's secondary inputs, if desired).

It's for this reason that the GK-5 internal kit is intended to be used with a dual jack/cable setup; so that, if your only GK Serial unit is the GM-800 synth, you can run it in parallel with normal guitar gear. If you want to use a single cable setup (in which the normal guitar pickup signal and hexaphonic signals are converted and outputted via GK-Serial), that requires a secondary unit in the form of either a VG-800 or an older guitar synth fed via GKC-DA converter for the GM-800 to pass its digital signal input on to (Though someone with a GK5 internal kit could actually get by with just the "DA" converter by plugging a guitar cable into the "Guitar IN" jack on the converter to output the normal guitar pickup signal).

I see the SY1000 problem is to use the converter if you have a setup with the GK5 pickup right?

Correct. Steve Vai, for example, has been using such a setup touring with Beat - However, he is also using the two cable method described above (his guitar rig is receiving the signal from his guitar's normal output jack, the GK-Serial cable is feeding the GM-800 as well as a GKC-DA converter feeding the 13 pin input of the SY-1000 unit, and he's using expression pedals to control the mix of these branching audio paths).

As far as I understand, the GM800 is a standalone unit on itself but when pairing with the axe FX you can have 2 output? One axe fx output for guitar parts and one for synth parts right?

You can achieve that - But it requires the workarounds mentioned; due to the GM-800 not outputting a guitar signal (Roland/BOSS designed it like a keyboard synth, instead of a guitar effects unit). It's unique in this respect; with basically all other Roland/BOSS guitar synth units (including the VG-800) allowing separate guitar and synth outputs, as we've come to expect. All this signal-routing confusion results from Roland/BOSS splitting the guitar synth functionality players were accustomed to having in one unit between two, dedicated units intended to be paired together.

[jb63]

So they made it unnecessarily complicated again, is what you're saying.
I did a search but didn't find it. Is there a rig rundown with steve and adrian (and tony) about the beat tour?
was very sad to have to miss that show.

[mockchoi]

@mmmguitar off-topic. I think my guitar is better for me than a Belew. But I’m still jealous I wanted one of those things so bad when they came out. I just missed that lime one on Reverb last year.

[mmmguitar]

@jb63, If it's any consolation, I found Beat less impressive than the last Crimson lineup. Belew and Vai both want to take it to more ambitious places, and are open to writing original material for it - So their next go-around (and opportunity for you) should be even better.

So they made it unnecessarily complicated again, is what you're saying.

They somehow managed to make it retroactively complicated through not including the option for "normal guitar" in the GK Serial signal path when the GM-800 rompler/GK5 were released, then releasing the internal kit and VG-800 which allow for the guitar signal routing. This sets people up to be disappointed when they discover that the GM-800 lacks a "GUITAR OUT" jack, yet can pass that signal along to a VG-800 or GKC-DA converter via a recent firmware update. The crummy thing is that adding a jack to the unit would require an additional D/A converter and redesigned I/O architecture - Meaning we're not going to see it until it's implemented in a successor.

I did a search but didn't find it. Is there a rig rundown with steve and adrian (and tony) about the beat tour?

I haven't seen one for Tony (though I'd like to).

Vai:







Belew:

@mmmguitar off-topic. I think my guitar is better for me than a Belew. But I’m still jealous I wanted one of those things so bad when they came out. I just missed that lime one on Reverb last year.

I don't remember if it was the same lime one I nearly pulled the trigger on, or if it was the one listed after I got mine which was listed for more, despite appearing to be missing everything else from the case.

You can have first refusal on my Belew if/when I sell it, if you like (I won't be trying to profit from it). The whole point of the project Fly shell I've had in a rack for most of the past year is to build a "Marc" Fly where my tastes and Adrian's diverge. It's well-documented on this site that I was in the same boat as you for many years; lusting after that thing. Now that I have one and maintain it like any other Fly I've owned, it's a relief not only for the pursuit to have ended, but to have learned what I prefer and would have done differently from the mad scientist "kitchen sink" approach Ade and Axel had settled on twenty years ago.

PS. I always enjoy reading about your Mojo MIDI, and your impressions of the new gear on the vguitarforums. I still regret having sold my '08 Tangerine Mojo with the GK3 and Sustainiac (If I still had it, it would have been most of the way to what I've been making my '97 Deluxe into) - It's definitely a "the grass is always greener" scenario.

[mockchoi]

Well thank you, @mmmguitar, and thank you for your help/advice with my projects in the past. Sure, if you decide to let it go, let me know and I’ll see where I’m at at that time.

[jb63]

The whole point of the project Fly shell I've had in a rack for most of the past year is to build a "Marc" Fly where my tastes and Adrian's diverge.

Do you want to keep the variax function or scrap that?

Also, a thing I've noticed with all the sustainer users is that they all have it set on full power all the time, rather than having a knob that lets you roll up or down the amount of magnetic sustain on the strings.

What's your opinion on that?
Do you want yours on full power all the time?
I had to add a dedicated knob to mine to get that option and its a lot of real estate but there is so much gentle stuff I use the sustainer for that I couldn't imagine not being able to have that function.

[mmmguitar]

Do you want to keep the variax function or scrap that?

I won't be transplanting anything Variax.

Though I record with the Variax 1.0 sounds the Belew has, I gave up on the Variax tech two years or so before Yamaha/Line 6 discontinued it: A community member named Arislaf had taken the time to model guitars from his personal collection to really dial in what was effectively a "3.0" suite of instruments with a lot of nuanced detail distinguishing them. The problem came about when I A/B'd them (as well as the 2.0 firmware models, and 1.75 models) against my own collection at the time; and determined that, although I loved the Swiss army knife aspect of it, the Variax was nonetheless my worst-sounding guitar due to limitations and artifacts inherent in/specific to the tech. Arislaf agreed about it ultimately not passing the Pepsi challenge; and endorsed the SIM1 Guitar XT-1 box as the market successor to the Variax. SIM1 subsequently went out of business around the same time the Variax line ended.

I'm now in the process of making pickup modeling presets in the VG-800 based on some of the Belew's Variax sounds I've recorded with, and currently intend to go with a GK5 internal kit on my project Fly in lieu of the RMC/Variax combo. In fact, mine won't use piezos at all; with the VG-800 able to cover far more ground than the Fishman or Graph Tech piezo preamps can. I would happily use RMC elements being fed into an oboard GK-Serial converter (and likely will, once someone else has done the necessary R&D).

The only obsolete tech I intend to use will be the Fly itself - I'm basically trying to make the kind of Fly I would order today, if they were still BTO.

Do you want yours on full power all the time?

In short, yes. We've discussed this before and; though I would have zero complaints playing any Fly you had spec'd out the control layout for, I prefer a more minimalist layout in which each potentiometer performs at least two functions via switching. If I played like you or Reeves Gabrels (or otherwise had a gig in which I feathered in the sustainer effect for particular songs), I would add a 25k drive pot without hesitation. Since the Digitech GNX days, however, I've always used an expression pedal-assigned effect which basically combines compression and pitch-shifting to achieve a superficially similar end; and the Axe FX currently produces a version of it for me which has sufficed to the point that I've never felt the need to add a drive knob. I've also found I prefer to feather in sustained synth block tones with my foot to create the illusion of nuanced guitar feedback. In practice, I really only use the Sustainiac sparingly, dramatically, and in an on/off capacity. It's also such a headache installing and getting them to play nice with the surrounding circuits while they radiate signal (in addition to their finicky nature of affecting only the wound strings once the circuit receives anything less than the ideal, spec-voltage from an alkaline battery) that I have no desire to put them in my other guitars; and tend to have only one, designated "special effects" guitar with it installed.

Of course, if someone else was building guitars for me, I would say "PUT A SUSTAINAIC IN ALL OF THEM, PLEASE."