Adding an Ibanez Dynamix Alter Switch on a Fly

[KenanJ]

Hey guys,

Like the tittle say I'm trying to find out if it's possible to install an Ibanez alter switch on a Fly to get so more tonal option on my guitar without modifying its stock look.
The alter swithc is a 5 way switch that it linked to a circuit and then it think there are wires going to pots and humbuckers. If you guy have clarifications on that I'll gladly take it!

I'm thinking of removing the tone pot, which I never use and put the alter switch there if possible, and the other concern would be to change the original 3 way switch to the 5 way of the alter switch but I'm confused how it will interact with the piezo system...

I add some photos to give you guys some clarity on my unclear post lol.

Thanks for reading me.

Cheers,

KJ

[mmmguitar]

Cool idea, @KenanJ. Assuming this is intended for your '94 Deluxe, do you have space to install the 5 way blade switch, or a location for it in mind?

I used a router bit and dremel sanding barrel to make space for a fairly thin Schaller 5 way switch within the control cavity of my '97 Deluxe near the edge of the body, then used a cutting wheel, a thin chisel tip, and drill and engraving bits to cut the mounting slot and countersunk screw holes for the switch through the top between the volume and tone pot shaft holes and the edge of the body. Given how much larger the footprint for that Ibanez switch is, I don't know where or how you intend to fit it alongside the '90s electronics assembly.

The Dynamix/Alter switch being passive and in the first part of the signal chain means that it won't interact negatively with your piezos or active circuitry occurring later in the signal chain. The only issue is that, if the Dynamix is replacing your guitar's 4PDT pickup selector switch, you'll need to run jumper wires from the new switch to the ribbon assembly contacts soldered to the original 3 way toggle switch. Removing the mag tone pot from the circuit should be as simple as unsoldering it from the ribbon cable connections and covering the loose connections with tape or something to protect and prevent it from shorting against the casing of the new switch installed where the pot was.

If your priority is to preserve the original appearance of the guitar, you could instead replace the mag volume or tone pots with push-pulls to reproduce some of the Dynamix's switching options (such as the tuned coil splits Ibanez is referring to as a "Power Tap").

[KenanJ]

Hey mate @mmmguitar !

I'm happy you think it's a cool idea because I think it can solve some tonal issues or the fly !

Cool idea, @KenanJ. Assuming this is intended for your '94 Deluxe, do you have space to install the 5 way blade switch, or a location for it in mind?

I thought maybe I can tweak the existing switch or find a way to make it work with the existing 3 way switch or maybe drop in a freeway switch? I think I will have to really think about it...

If your priority is to preserve the original appearance of the guitar, you could instead replace the mag volume or tone pots with push-pulls to reproduce some of the Dynamix's switching options (such as the tuned coil splits Ibanez is referring to as a "Power Tap").

I thin it's a nitfy idea ! I just don't know if I can find a drop in replacement for that but speaking about that, would it be possible to add a push push or push pull with 5 rotary clicks that can act as a 5 way selector?

Beside that after examinig the cavity I'm pretty sure there is room for the alter switch circuit.

Do you think it's a feasible work without changing the overall aspect of the guitar?

[mmmguitar]

would it be possible to add a push push or push pull with 5 rotary clicks that can act as a 5 way selector?

That's similar to what PRS used to do. Though push-pull rotary switches exist (as encoders in more complicated electronics applications), I'm not familiar with any which would work in this project as a pickup selector within the space constraints of a Fly. If you can fit a 4P5T rotary switch (non push-pull) in your Fly to replace one of the pots and act as a pickup selector switch, you can repurpose the 4PDT on-on-on selector switch already in the guitar to modify the signals going to and coming from the 4P5T in all kinds of ways, or replace it with an on-on switch such as the one which seems to be used with the Dynamix.

Do you think it's a feasible work without changing the overall aspect of the guitar?

It's feasible. You just need to first commit to exactly which pickup combinations you want; so we can figure out how best to achieve them. The main hurdle I see is that there's nothing the Dynamix is doing that can't be done by making your own switching system with the above-mentioned rotary pot and a secondary toggle switch.

Though I've never worked with the Dynamix, I can tell from the pin connectors on the Alter toggle switch and color-coded wiring harness on the selector switch PCB that it was made to minimize factory installation labor costs on production guitars requiring the custom switching scheme Ibanez had settled on: The only thing special the Dynamix selector switch could have is an onboard resistor and/or capacitor combo on the PCB for the filtered humbucker splits - However, those component values would have been chosen based on the particular pickups included in the Ibanez AZ guitar it was designed for.

The thing with "tuned" coil splits is that there's no one-size-fits-all prescription for component values: The lower the wind (Ω reading) of the humbucker coils, the more the tuned split component values are tailored to minimize the drop in output when splitting. In the case of hotter-wound pickups (such as the Air Norton/Tone Zone combo in your Fly), the tuned split components would be tailored to moreso compensate for the warmer EQ curve (e.g., making a mid-heavy humbucker with an attenuated high end sound more like a single coil when split; through a combination of leaving the outside humbucker coil unaffected, while also affecting a sufficient dip in the mid frequencies of the coil being partially shunted to ground).

My point is that there are a lot of options available to you - But the Dynamix selector switch is a constraint you don't need to settle for unless you're planning on installing a 5 way blade switch through the top of the guitar. If you want to preserve the appearance by utilizing only the existing holes for the pots and switches, you can reproduce what the Dynamix/Alter Switch does using other components.

[KenanJ]

My point is that there are a lot of options available to you - But the Dynamix selector switch is a constraint you don't need to settle for unless you're planning on installing a 5 way blade switch through the top of the guitar. If you want to preserve the appearance by utilizing only the existing holes for the pots and switches, you can reproduce what the Dynamix/Alter Switch does using other components.

That's what I thought when I saw the switching abilities of the alter switch but my skill in electronics are way behind yours lol.

To me the ergonomics and playaiblity of my fly is way above anything I played ever and this only justify being my top1 however, on my version I find the humbucker to be a but thin and dry, they are not as creamy as humbuckers should be I guess, Basically keeping the 3 way switch I could go for a middle position like the Greeny Lespaul which is out of phase 2 hums at the same time that give kinda beefy strat tone. Maybe I should look for other fly size humbuckers what's your experience on that ? @vjmanzo

[mmmguitar]

@KenanJ, a DPDT phase switch is easy enough to add to a Fly. However, if you're specifically going for a Peter Green tone, you should know that it's achieved by turning the volume of one of the pickups down slightly. You can make a "preset" switch for this by using a mini pot/variable resistor with the phase switch to dial in the balance between the pickups when the switch is toggled on.

Concerning pickups: Fly pickups can be purchased from Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan, Bare Knuckle, Mama, etc. This thread details how humbuckers with a 51.05mm pole piece spacing (Dimario's "F"-spacing) may be modified for Fly mounting - Meaning any pickup winders local to you should be able to produce a pickup for the Fly footprint (whether they'll be willing to, I can't promise).

[vjmanzo]

+1 to what Marc has said.

I have experimented with Fly pickups a bit, but have found that I can get the most significant tone changes by changing the string set I’m using (material of the strings, specifically) and also adjusting the height of the pickups.

I have a set of Vintage Vibe P90 pickups in a Fly Hardtail that I use for some projects—I like the sound and it is more Stratty and chimey than the Gen 1 or Gen 2 humbuckers. There are some sound clips of VV P90s in this post performed by a fellow member.

[KenanJ]

Hey guys sorry I've been caught up with work for a minute,

@vjmanzo cna you elaborate more on the below? Is there a topic about that already ? (string height and string material)

I have experimented with Fly pickups a bit, but have found that I can get the most significant tone changes by changing the string set I’m using (material of the strings, specifically) and also adjusting the height of the pickups.

My only "complain" is that the current tone I have is a bit "thin", and I'd like to explore more tonal option, after searching I think the freeway toggle is the best option to not deteriorate the condition of the guitar, @mmmguitar you mention you worked with 3x3-03 but on their website there are 3x3-04 and 3x3-05 as well, I don't think the bigger model would work but I think a simple 3x3-03 should be enough, I'm taking any input on that.

Edit: After thining my final goal would be to have a toggle that can do:
1st bank:
- Bridge Hum
- Out of phase Hums (Grenny-ish tone)
- Neck Hum
2nd bank:
- Bridge Hum in parallel
- Bridge + Neck split (can I chose which coil is kept? I think maybe inner Bridge and outter Neck would be better?)
- Neck hum in parallel

What's your thoughts?

Cheers

[vjmanzo]

@vjmanzo cna you elaborate more on the below? Is there a topic about that already ? (string height and string material)

Happy to! Regarding pickup height, I was told, as a teenager, to “raise ‘em high and let ‘em fry”, which delivers a hotter signal to the amp, but, actually, with the Fly specifically, I prefer the pickup height lowered, and feel that it results in a warmer and more balanced timbre than when the pickups are higher.

Regarding materials, I try out new strings on my electric guitars and acoustic guitars fairly regularly. For my Flys, D’Addario makes many different sets of strings, and while I primarily use the XL and NYXL 10s, I have gotten radical timbre changes with different sets. Their Chromes, for example, produce a timbre without a bright articulation that sounds very different from regular electric guitar strings—no finger-sliding/string squeaking or noise like that. Their Pro Steels produced a super-aggressive timbre…I tried them to see how they’d drive my Sustainiac because there’s more steel to work with (very unique results!), and the timbre sounded very in-your-face and modern. On a few Flys, I have the string gauge increased and the tuning lowered, which, of course, also changes the timbre.

I feel strongly that you can get the most bang-for-your-buck in terms of tone changes, by changing strings first, and—how great—changing strings is not expensive relative to buying new pickups or pedals, and it’s easy to do by yourself.

Not all strings are made equally, and, IMO, this is not an area where it makes sense to try to save money, if possible; some string manufacturers sell strings that have flaws in them because they’re not using modern approaches in their manufacturing process. The Fly manual, as you may know, recommends D’Addario strings—not that this is the law—but they tested the Flys at the factory with D’Addario XLs and @Ken Parker does personally recommend and use D’Addario strings with electrics and his archtops. While all manufacturers make occasional mistakes, I have found their strings to be the most consistent set by set and string by string.

To be transparent, in the past few years, our lab at WPI has received a few in-kind donations of strings from D’Addario. I’ve been using their strings since the early 2000s, so when we applied to their foundation for this support and they asked us which strings we’d like donated, I ordered sets of the strings I linked above, with which I was very familiar and then explored a few novelty ones like the Pure Nickel, which transported my NiteFly back to the 1950s .

I hope this helps!

#StringIssues #PickupIssues

[jb63]

This brief VJ essay about strings is the most valuable thing you will read all year.
The things to remember is its just magnets and steel producing signal.
You can alter or mutate that signal (which I'm obsessed with) or you can see what kids of acoustic stuff you can get out of the magnets and steel.

Its why I like having more than 1 fly.

[vjmanzo]

Thanks, @jb63 and same: it’s also why I like having more than 1 Fly.

[mmmguitar]

you mention you worked with 3x3-03 but on their website there are 3x3-04 and 3x3-05 as well, I don't think the bigger model would work but I think a simple 3x3-03 should be enough, I'm taking any input on that.

The 3x3-03 is useful for coil splits (of which you're wanting only one of, in position 5), and the -05 model switch is the only one you can use to get series/parallel switching for both humbuckers as positions on the selector switch. I wrote a few paragraphs explaining why, for anyone unfamiliar with how those switches work. You can also skip down to the part where I post the Free-Way diagram samples for the -05 and -03 models.

...

my final goal would be to have a toggle that can do:
1st bank:
- Bridge Hum
- Out of phase Hums (Grenny-ish tone)
- Neck Hum
2nd bank:
- Bridge Hum in parallel
- Bridge + Neck split (can I chose which coil is kept? I think maybe inner Bridge and outter Neck would be better?)
- Neck hum in parallel

What's your thoughts?

I don't know if there is a product which will consolidate those six functions to a single toggle (there was the Guitar Max board with programmable presets - But I don't know that it ever materialized). Assuming the least about finding an all-in-one solution, I'll try to explain what kind of switching you'll need to produce those wiring configurations in detail; for the sake of anyone else who might find this thread and be inspired by the options you've listed:

The switching in a typical three way pickup selector toggle for two pickups (such as you'd find on a Les Paul) is "single pole, double throw" (hereafter abbreviated SPDT). We can think of the single pole as being a terminal for one wire to be connected to, and the "double throw" referring to the two switch positions in which it is connected to one of two other switch terminals at a time. The terminal (also commonly referred to as a "contact" or "lug") which is connected in all switch positions is designated "common."

For the sake of illustration, we'll imagine a double-throw switch which has only two switch positions (A/B-ing between which of the two terminals is connected to the common terminal). A two position switch, in this case, is designated "On-On"; because the common is connected to either A or B in both positions. If you were to have a switch position in which the common was not connected, that switch position would be designated "Off." In typical pickup selector switching, every switch position is "On." So, for example, a modern Stratocaster's five position selector switch has five throws and is, technically speaking, an "on-on-on-on-on" switch. But let's stick with SPDT for now:

If you were to connect a wire from the SPDT common terminal to the "tip" terminal on an output jack (or to any components in the signal path eventually passing the signal along to the jack), the common terminal would function as the switch "output"; meaning you could then use the SPDT to switch between two different signal sources being outputted via the common. You could also use a SPDT in the opposite orientation; where a single signal source connected to the common is A/B'd between the other switch terminals each acting as outputs (in guitars, this is often used as a "bypass" switch to remove potentiometers from the circuit, to output a particular pickup's signal directly to the guitar's output jack, or to divert the guitar signal through a filter or preamp along its path to the output jack).

I described all this because switches with additional poles often act as multiple SPDTs contained within a single switch housing, actuated with one switch lever. The nomenclature for the number of switching poles goes "single" (S), then "double" (D) for two switch poles, and then number designations for additional poles (3P, 4P, etc.):

The next diagram is to illustrate how a "3 way" pickup selector works: It is still SPDT - But the "middle" switch position is an additional "On" which connects the common to both of the other terminals:

Parker guitars with mag/mix/piezo switches utilize an example of an On-Off-On SPDT; because the outputted stereo signal is determined by sending either the mag pickup circuit or piezo circuit signals to ground (with the unconnected/"off" middle switch position putting neither to ground; which allows both to be outputted via the "tip" and/or "ring" terminals of the stereo output jack).

I illustrated these so we can recognize that more complicated switches are merely crowded variations of these basic examples; with the terminals of the additional poles arranged according to whatever minimizes space. This means that, no matter how non-intuitively the terminals on a switch are arranged, you can infer exactly what function they perform by identifying which terminals are common, and which pole terminals connect to it in each throw of the various switch positions (chart it out on a napkin, if you have to - It will preserve your sanity!).


...


With those fundamentals established, let's go through your desired switching options to determine how many switching poles and throws are required to achieve each one:

"Bridge humbucker coils in series" requires no switching.

"Both series humbuckers in parallel, with the start and finish wires of one humbucker reversed ("phase switch" wiring)" requires a DPDT switch; because we need two common outputs: One to select which wire is outputted as signal, and another to select which wire is outputted to ground.

"Neck humbucker coils in series" requires no switching - However, a SPDT common is required to switch between the two pickups.

So far, we need a 3PDT on-on-on for pickup selection and phase switching between three switch positions. Now let's consider the other three wire configurations separately:

"Bridge humbucker coils in parallel" requires two commons of a DPDT: One pole to select between whether the finish wire of one coil is connected to the start coil of the other (two coils in parallel) or to the other's finish coil (two coils in series), and another pole to send the finish coil going unused in parallel wiring to ground (this is necessary for the humbucker coils to function as separate single coils).

"Bridge inside coil in parallel with Neck outside coil" requires a DPST (though DPDT switches are most commonly used); because each pair of humbucker coil-finish wires connected for series operation needs connected to an isolated common so that their signals can be shunted to ground with one throw in order to be turned "off." You can combine whichever coils you like - But you first need to determine that the wind direction and magnetic polarity of the active coils will result in hum cancellation when combined, as well as their being in phase with one another.

"Neck humbucker coils in parallel" requires a DPDT for the reasons listed above for series/parallel switching in the bridge humbucker. Because each pickup requires its own DPDT, four wires being switched means a 4PDT is required to perform series/parallel switching for two pickups with one switch.

Those three options would require a total of 6 poles on a single switch to perform; with the number of poles required for all six desired wiring configurations totaling 9.

Here is the first hurdle in achieving that with one switch: It's practically unheard-of to produce mechanical 9PDT switches in one housing small enough to fit into a guitar cavity - The job of affording that many functions in one guitar is typically split between several, more common DPDT or 4PDT switches.

The Free-Way switches themselves have only two poles; with the 3x3-03 and 3x3-05 being DP6T. The difference between the two is that the 3x3-05 has twice as many terminals connecting to the common in each pole's throws (two dedicated terminals for each pole, per switch position)

Your desired switching requires some cleverness in taking six wires (three conductors from each humbucker) and coming up with a diagram which connects them to each other and/or to ground in a variety of combinations - while also selecting one or both pickups -, to perform 9 poles' worth of work with maybe 4 available within the space constraints of the Fly, if we split the workload between a Free-Way switch and a push-pull pot.

I have two workarounds in mind, utilizing either the 3x3-03 or 3x3-05, plus a DPDT push-pull tone pot. I'll get the the -05 proposal out of the way first, because it requires a bit for work (click to enlarge):

Because the 3x3-03 doesn't have the number of either poles or terminals required to perform as many simultaneous duties as you're wanting, you may wish to consider the larger footprint of the more versatile 3x3-05 just to have both "humbucker in parallel" options available on the switch. You can get five of the six functions you want from the selector itself, then outsource the additional DPDT workload needed for phase reversal to a push-pull pot, for a total of 8 sounds. I'm willing to revise the above diagram to reflect these changes, should you decide to pursue it.

Note that the space constraints of your '90's Fly wiring within the cavity may necessitate swapping the location of the selector switch with one of the pots. This is because even the smaller 3x3-03 requires removing some of the material of the cavity wall on the lower bout of the Fly with a Dremel sanding barrel to accommodate the switch's footprint (I found this to be the case when installing them in my '96, '97, and '11 Flys). I never purchased a 3x3-05 for a Fly project, because I didn't think it would fit in that space and; therefore, need to be relocated to one of the holes nearer the center of the cavity rout, with no guarantee the other controls would still fit in the adjacent holes around the switch's larger footprint.

You can actually print a footprint template of the switches off the Free-Way site and cut it to size to see how much material might be removed from the cavity wall on the lower bout of the guitar to accommodate each model. The flex PCB assembly means jumper wires would need to be soldered from the relocated controls' terminals to their solder points on the flex PCB, to minimize unnecessary strain or folding liable to tear the original, brittle material used.

Now, in case you're set on the 3x3-03 due to working within the space constraints, I think you can get everything but the "bridge pickup coils in parallel" sound from the switch:

As with the 3x3-05 idea, you can use a push-pull DPDT pot to give you the "bridge coils in parallel" option in switch position "3." The way Fly pickups are wound by Dimarzio, one pickup has the black and white coil finish wires as its series connection, while the other pickup has the red and green coil start wires as its series connection. This is done so that the pickups are in phase when combined. Simply change the wire codes of the neck pickup to be identical to the bridge pickup, and you should end up with the out-of-phase signal you want in position 2, and in-phase split neck outside coil and bridge inside coil in position 5 (I no longer have a set of stock Fly pickups to confirm that it's as simple as I'm imagining - There may end up being an additional step required). The Position 6 sound (split coil bridge pickup by itself) will just be a bonus sound on the switch.

The switching options you want are possible - Just seemingly not all with one switch. Furthermore, the space constraints of a Ken-era Fly quickly complicates these kinds of mods.

[KenanJ]

@vjmanzo cna you elaborate more on the below? Is there a topic about that already ? (string height and string material)

Happy to! Regarding pickup height, I was told, as a teenager, to “raise ‘em high and let ‘em fry”, which delivers a hotter signal to the amp, but, actually, with the Fly specifically, I prefer the pickup height lowered, and feel that it results in a warmer and more balanced timbre than when the pickups are higher.

Regarding materials, I try out new strings on my electric guitars and acoustic guitars fairly regularly. For my Flys, D’Addario makes many different sets of strings, and while I primarily use the XL and NYXL 10s, I have gotten radical timbre changes with different sets. Their Chromes, for example, produce a timbre without a bright articulation that sounds very different from regular electric guitar strings—no finger-sliding/string squeaking or noise like that. Their Pro Steels produced a super-aggressive timbre…I tried them to see how they’d drive my Sustainiac because there’s more steel to work with (very unique results!), and the timbre sounded very in-your-face and modern. On a few Flys, I have the string gauge increased and the tuning lowered, which, of course, also changes the timbre.

I feel strongly that you can get the most bang-for-your-buck in terms of tone changes, by changing strings first, and—how great—changing strings is not expensive relative to buying new pickups or pedals, and it’s easy to do by yourself.

Not all strings are made equally, and, IMO, this is not an area where it makes sense to try to save money, if possible; some string manufacturers sell strings that have flaws in them because they’re not using modern approaches in their manufacturing process. The Fly manual, as you may know, recommends D’Addario strings—not that this is the law—but they tested the Flys at the factory with D’Addario XLs and @Ken Parker does personally recommend and use D’Addario strings with electrics and his archtops. While all manufacturers make occasional mistakes, I have found their strings to be the most consistent set by set and string by string.

To be transparent, in the past few years, our lab at WPI has received a few in-kind donations of strings from D’Addario. I’ve been using their strings since the early 2000s, so when we applied to their foundation for this support and they asked us which strings we’d like donated, I ordered sets of the strings I linked above, with which I was very familiar and then explored a few novelty ones like the Pure Nickel, which transported my NiteFly back to the 1950s .

I hope this helps!

Hi VJ,

Thanks a lot for your answer, I also am a big fan of d'Addario strings even though I never tried to swap them on my fly, I used ernie balls before but I never tried to explore as deep as you the string side of the tone.
I'd like to try 8.5s or low 9s but on the website of d'Addario it's very hard to navigate through their ranges of strings with the XS, XL, XT Nickel or Pure Nickel can you explain a bit more the difference you noticed with your experience please?

Thanks in advance

[KenanJ]

Hi @mmmguitar

That's a lot of food for my mind ! Your technical abilities goes far beyond my current knowledge, I really appreciate the time you spent answering laser sharp on a young padawan's question like mines lol. Thanks a lot for that.

The switching options you want are possible - Just seemingly not all with one switch. Furthermore, the space constraints of a Ken-era Fly quickly complicates these kinds of mods.

From what I understood I think the wiser solution would be to reverse the problem, with the space allowed in the Ken-era fly what is possible using maybe the current switch (You said even the -03 need routing) and the non use of my tone pot to use this tone pot as a switch like you said and then see what are the possible outcomes and take is as them, I understand Ken's idea was that those guitars are not meant to be modified but I just want to explore what could be done with the existing

[mmmguitar]

I really appreciate the time you spent answering laser sharp on a young padawan's question like mines lol.

Thank you for providing me such imaginative questions to consider while my coffee's kicking in - Thinking about guitar wiring mods is more fun than crossword puzzles.

[KenanJ]

I just bump this to give credit to @vjmanzo.

I changed my strings to just simple XL's and the tone changed drastically even accousticallt it's really insane so I can't thank you enough to stress on the fact that pickup change can be a bit overkill, maybe I try others pickups later but the diMarzio gen1 sound really great now!