threaded rod for balance wheel is spinning

[radguitar]

Hey guys, I just got a 1994 Fly Deluxe, and I noticed the threaded rod for balance wheel "spins with the balance wheel" when I try to turn the wheel to tighten tension. As a result I can't really get enough tension on the flat spring to get the guitar tuned. I included some pictures of the hole where the threaded rod goes. It seems like maybe some kind of small part is missing? Any ideas?
Here are the pics:

[mmmguitar]

@radguitar, I've had this happen with two different Flys; and each time it was binding due to the adjustment wheel failing to smoothly travel along the threads of the cylinder. Have you lubed the threads and/or checked for any scratches? With one Fly, cleaning and lubing the cylinder threads got everything working smoothly, again. For the other, I ended up replacing it with a clean one from Mike G/Wiguitar/G.man (the old cylinder has been sitting in a parts box until the day I decide how I'm going to burnish or re-cut the threads).

#WheelIssues

[radguitar]

@radguitar, I've had this happen with two different Flys; and each time it was binding due to the adjustment wheel failing to smoothly travel along the threads of the cylinder. Have you lubed the threads and/or checked for any scratches? With one Fly, cleaning and lubing the cylinder threads got everything working smoothly, again. For the other, I ended up replacing it with a clean one from Mike G/Wiguitar/G.man (the old cylinder has been sitting in a parts box until the day I decide how I'm going to burnish or re-cut the threads).

Great thanks, yea I did lube it, but still was happening even after that. I just gave it a second look though and yeah the threads to look a bit chewed up on the cylinder. I found that guy's online store, thank you! I will try getting a new cylinder from him and see how it goes.

[mmmguitar]

I found that guy's online store, thank you!

Hopefully I haven't led you astray! In the meantime: Was the issue you were having a case of the threaded rod moving through the tension wheel up until a certain point where the whole assembly abruptly begins to turn, or were there other symptoms that come to mind (e.g., a "rough point" where extra force was needed to turn the wheel, any moments where the tension seemed to slip, etc.)?

From what I recall without having one in front of me, the whole flatspring compression adjustment assembly (threaded rod, threaded wheel, T-bar, and ridge plate) is simple enough in design that the main thing to go wrong is how they fit together (e.g., the threaded rod will spin in its mounting hole if the wheel binds on its threads; the T bar can be installed upside down; and the ridge plate can be out of alignment with the spring if the string/spring counterbalance is out of whack).

Here's to hoping your issue is no more severe than mine was.

[radguitar]

I found that guy's online store, thank you!

Hopefully I haven't led you astray! In the meantime: Was the issue you were having a case of the threaded rod moving through the tension wheel up until a certain point where the whole assembly abruptly begins to turn, or were there other symptoms that come to mind (e.g., a "rough point" where extra force was needed to turn the wheel, any moments where the tension seemed to slip, etc.)?

From what I recall without having one in front of me, the whole flatspring compression adjustment assembly (threaded rod, threaded wheel, T-bar, and ridge plate) is simple enough in design that the main thing to go wrong is how they fit together (e.g., the threaded rod will spin in its mounting hole if the wheel binds on its threads; the T bar can be installed upside down; and the ridge plate can be out of alignment with the spring if the string/spring counterbalance is out of whack).

Here's to hoping your issue is no more severe than mine was.

Yeah it was basically doing the first thing you described, in the early stages of turning the balance wheel the cylinder is firmly in place, until it reaches a certain point where the cylinder just "starts turning suddenly." I'm tempted to try and clean the cylinder a second time (and be more thorough) but at this point I really just want to wait for the new cylinder to come in the mail. I turned the cylinder a few times where now I'm afraid I might have slightly worn down the "lip" or whatever that catches inside the channel that is cut into the cylinder. It seems like the lip is more prominent towards the rear of the cavity that the cylinder goes into, and is slightly more shallow as you get closer to the outlet hole. So hopefully I haven't grinded it down too much with all the turning I did earlier. And who knows what the previous owner did! He had the trem blocked off with a small block of wood so maybe he tried to mess with it too and gave up.

[radguitar]

Okay just wanted to post an update: the new cylinder I ordered fixed the issue! I received it in the mail, lubed it with Radioshack contact cleaner (basically a light oil), and installed it and the guitar was working normally afterwards.
I really appreciate your help mmmguitar, you're a life saver.

[mmmguitar]

I really appreciate your help mmmguitar, you're a life saver.

You can thank me by showing the rest of us some photos of that sweet '94 Deluxe!

[KenanJ]

Hey guys,

Setting up the new supreme 97 is recently got I see that I have now the same problem, the rod seem to spin when moving the balance wheel, as per @mmmguitar advice I put some WD40 and will let it sit the night and check after but just for precaution could you guys point me toward the exact replacement piece on wguitar ebay store.

Thanks in advance and thank you for making me less stressed out about the situation lol

[mmmguitar]

@KenanJ:

eBay listing for just the cylinder.

For the Reverb listing, Mike has the cylinder listed with a post-2003 Fly tension adjustment wheel.

Mike tends to tweak the listings between his store fronts. I recommend anyone looking for a specific factory part message him on either site to see if he has it inventoried (it may not necessarily be listed).

[KenanJ]

@mmmguitar I messaged him he told me that (see pics) so from what you say pre refined fly and post and different rods right ? So then how can I identify a pre refined fly rod ?

[mmmguitar]

@mmmguitar I messaged him he told me that (see pics) so from what you say pre refined fly and post and different rods right ? So then how can I identify a pre refined fly rod ?

The rods should be the same between the two iterations - The only difference is the tension adjustment wheel. I can confirm that the rod I purchased through the eBay listing works in my '97 Deluxe.

[KenanJ]

@mmmguitar I messaged him he told me that (see pics) so from what you say pre refined fly and post and different rods right ? So then how can I identify a pre refined fly rod ?

The rods should be the same between the two iterations - The only difference is the tension adjustment wheel. I can confirm that the rod I purchased through the eBay listing works in my '97 Deluxe.

Once again you save the day thanks a lot @mmmguitar

[Patzag]

I would use a bit of lithium white grease rather than WD40. First of all, it is inert electronically and will not drip into the cavity. Second, it is more effective at lubricating metal.

[KenanJ]

I would use a bit of lithium white grease rather than WD40. First of all, it is inert electronically and will not drip into the cavity. Second, it is more effective at lubricating metal.

I will buy some thanks. I just put 2 presses of wd 40 on the rod way away from the cavity I don’t see how can I go to the cavity … especially with capillarity with the threads…

[KenanJ]

@Patzag let’s try this

[Patzag]

@Patzag let’s try this

Just a little dab ...

[KenanJ]

Hey guys,

I’m bumping this thread because I received the rods. They are perfectly fine however when trying to fit them is seems that even though the old rod as some groves damaged, the main problem is the wheel itself. It kinda runs smoothly without tension but some parts of the rod are harden than others even with lithium grease, so I’m afraid to groves of the balance wheel are dead. I checked in eBay there are some replacement but it’s like 100eur the wheel… shake my head …

[KenanJ]

I will try as well with an other spring the one I’m using a and old 9 I will try with a 10 I have spare. Maybe it’s the problem but it’s really weird even with the rod spinning a bit in the wheel I managed to setup it floating on the most further groove (for maximum bridge action). But when I pull out on the bar the spring falls down I really don’t understand why so my best guess is that the spring is deficient … I hope to have your guys thoughts

[KenanJ]

@vjmanzo @mmmguitar any ideas? Is it possible that the balance wheel is failing?

[mmmguitar]

Apologies for the delay - I was searching for my spare cylinder with the scratched threads, @KenanJ, then decided it wasn't worth the extra wait.

If you remove the cylinder and wheel from the guitar, you can test the wheel threads using the two cylinders you have (the one you replaced because you suspected the threads were damaged, and the NOS one you purchased):

In my case, the cylinder I know to be working threads all the way through one side of the wheel and out the other. Though sections along the middle required more effort, it never became "stuck", or forced me to thread in the opposite direction to loosen it. After applying some tri-flow lubricant (for no reason other than I happened to have the bottle sitting out where I could easily retrieve it) to the wheel and cylinder threads, running the cylinder through the wheel in each direction a few times did make it progressively easier.

So, in your case: Have both parts out of the guitar, use a permanent marker or something to distinguish the cylinders, lubricate the threads of both cylinders and the wheel, and then use both hands to attempt to thread the cylinder you suspect of having damaged threads through the wheel. If this proves difficult or impossible, back it out and try the "new" cylinder: If the results are the same, then you've diagnosed the wheel threads as being the problem. Whether it's due to accumulation of debris, corrosion, or scratches, I can't say without seeing it.