String tension during dive bomb

[Gregsaab]

I recently re-tensioned my Mojo’s spring and followed two of the guides on the forum. While using the dive-bomb, tune, dive-bomb method, I noticed that some strings remain taut, while others become completely slack.

After some diligence, I got the guitar nicely balanced, however there is still a difference in string tensions when the tremolo is fully pressed to the body. Is it possible to have the strings balanced in such a way that they will all remain equally taut when fully engaging the tremolo?

[vjmanzo]

Hi @Gregsaab—the strings detune at different rates, unfortunately. Think about the amount you’d have to turn your tuner to lower your low E string a 1/2 step in pitch compared to the smaller amount you’d have to turn your high E string tuner to lower it a 1/2 step in pitch.

The Fly vibrato system is great, but it does not address an equal detune rate. Some Steinberger vibrato systems like the Trans Trem try to address the concept of equal detune rates per string, but the Fly does not.

[mmmguitar]

Here's my utterly redundant wall of text +1 to VJ's response (only for the curious):

As stated above, the Fly trem design doesn't affect the tension of the strings uniformly or in as much the same manner that other trem designs do; so it's a bit of an uphill battle against physics if you're wanting the strings to slacken at a more uniform rate.

You can set up a strat-style trem to pull up at fixed intervals through adjusting spring tension to skew the trem baseplate until the pull-up range from float to body contact is calibrated (as detailed here). In the other direction, a common double-locking design such as the Floyd Rose appears to slacken the strings uniformly during a dive - But this is only because its fulcrum range allows the player's applied leverage to quickly traverse the tension range dictated by the anchor points at each end of the strings' scale length (e.g., strings are totally slack by time the bar is contacting the body in a divebomb).

The Fly trem is comparatively less extreme in its range; due to its fulcrum point pivoting more or less at or behind the string saddles, rather than in front (as the Floyd Rose and other knife-edge designs do). Ken having designed the trem with ease of setup in mind resulted in certain aspects (e.g., individual saddle height and bridge radius) being non-adjustable. So while you can adjust the flatspring tension, bridge height, and float of the trem in a manner identical in principle to the linked strat trem adjustment video, the overall Fly trem design means that you would likely encounter action and intonation issues by time you had the pull-up range of the trem calibrated to affect a particular upward ceiling on pitch - but you wouldn't have compensating adjustments available to mitigate those effects. This also applies to adjusting flatspring tension so that the trem floats tilted back for increased slackening of the strings during divebombs. Note that the Fly trem design's placement of spring counterbalance being behind the bridge means that the trem compresses the flatspring during dives - So the feel is totally different in the first place.

The only designs I've seen that account for range of string detuning are (as VJ mentioned) Ned Steinberger's TransTrem iterations (an engineering feat most have failed to reproduce in these recent years following expiration of the patents) and the Virtual Jeff (essentially a mono A/D/A-conversion effect derivative of the Digitech Whammy pedal, but with improved polyphonic tracking).

I've not tried them, but the UK company Kemp Strings fabricates strings intended to detune with trem use uniformly enough for harmonized groups of strings to sound more consonant when doing bar dips and pullups. I think they're designed with Floyds in mind - I wouldn't expect them to work the same on my Flys or multiscale Strandbergs (hence why I haven't imported any).

[Gregsaab]

Thanks guys! @mmmguitar that was extremely informative. Ok, good to know. The guide mentions that dive bombing betwixt tuning gets rid of ‘slack’ - wasn’t sure if that was implying that no strings should become slack.

Anyway, that dive-bomb tuning strategy is extremely helpful.

[mmmguitar]

The guide mentions that dive bombing betwixt tuning gets rid of ‘slack’ - wasn’t sure if that was implying that no strings should become slack.

Ah. That's referring to slack in the string wraps around the tuning post (which is minimal with the Sperzel design); as well as settling the strings' elasticity range to the point that they can be dialed in to within 12 cents' or so consistent detuning of the target pitch. I grab my strings at various points between the pickups and along the neck, then pull up on them to help break them in; so I hadn't given as much thought to divebombs slackening them enough to help them settle.

For anyone else reading, I should add the disclaimer that the "divebomb, then retune" method of calibrating the Fly trem assumes the nut is perfectly cut for the particular gauge strings used - Tuning problems encountered in that step are indicative of nut binding; which must be addressed if you want to remain relatively in-tune with trem use. Note that the Fly trem is a non-locking design (though the locking tuners certainly help) and; therefore, shouldn't be expected to hold tuning as well as a design with a locking saddle and/or nut.

[Gregsaab]

With the divebomb tuning, I was seeing low E, G, and B a quarter-step sharp after each dive bomb, but after a number of detunings of those strings with dives, they were all in harmony.

[mmmguitar]

@Gregsaab, that seems close to ideal.

[Voice Of Reason]

With the divebomb tuning, I was seeing low E, G, and B a quarter-step sharp after each dive bomb, but after a number of detunings of those strings with dives, they were all in harmony.

Which is why I have been experimenting with string brands (and of course stretching as Marc detailed). NYXLs improved tuning stability on my end (to the degree that I have become very satisfied - though the darn G string still is the culprit, but it is noticeably better).

N.b. I mainly dive bomb (fixed mode). Tuning issues are more common when pulling up (balanced mode).

[Patzag]

One thing I would suggest is that after you have installed your strings, you push down on the string just north of the saddle. The G string is stiffer than the E and B strings, and therefore will retain some elasticity at the saddle break. If you push down on it, the string will break in a little better and, assuming that there's no binding at the nut, should return better to it's in tune position.
I've gone on for weeks without having to tune my guitar. This is mainly a function of proper stretching and installation of the strings at the bridge.

(Edited to handle typos from dictation ...)