Balanced String Set/Bridge Issues

[mmmguitar]

Happy for you that your trem is looking “normal” again.

Being as we’re sharing setups, here’s my lazy version (that assumes nut slotting/height, frets, and trem setup are “optimal”):

-String up to pitch
-Ensure truss is tightened enough that I’m getting slight buzz in first four frets
-Back off (loosen) truss until buzz is minimal
-Lower action until higher frets begin to buzz, then back off slightly
-Final check with slotted straight edge laid slightly diagonally along conic section (if the Fly, in this case, has such a fingerboard shape). There should be close to zero relief at this point; with any warping/twisting highlighted by the straight edge. Note that no guitar fingerboard should be expected to be 100% flush or parallel with the bottom of a straight edge.

[Voice Of Reason]

Happy for you that your trem is looking “normal” again.

Being as we’re sharing setups, here’s my lazy version (that assumes nut slotting/height, frets, and trem setup are “optimal”):

-String up to pitch
-Ensure truss is tightened enough that I’m getting slight buzz in first four frets
-Back off (loosen) truss until buzz is minimal
-Lower action until higher frets begin to buzz, then back off slightly
-Final check with slotted straight edge laid slightly diagonally along conic section (if the Fly, in this case, has such a fingerboard shape). There should be close to zero relief at this point; with any warping/twisting highlighted by the straight edge. Note that no guitar fingerboard should be expected to be 100% flush or parallel with the bottom of a straight edge.

I've lowered the relief even more (now at 0.04" at the 9th fret) and I can now lower my low E to 0.80" (without buzz). At this point, increasing relief adds buzz on the lower frets, while lowering it removes it. It sounds backwards (must be because of warping on the low E string area as my tech had pointed out. Otherwise, I am at loss.).

N.b. Frets were dressed recently and I don't have access to a straight edge.

What string gauge are you using mmmguitar?

On top of this, the bridge keeps on looking straighter, the less the relief. I have no idea what it should ideally look like (i.e. stock), but hopefully it's a step in the right direction.

[vjmanzo]

Hi @Voice of Reason--not sure how relevant this will be, but I'll add: if you've done the "clamping the neck" approach that @Ken Parker described in this post, then, I believe, you may need to remove some fret material to compensate for the change in the plane.

[mmmguitar]

@Voice of Reason, your current bridge angle resembles what’s on most of my Flys. I’m using 10-46 sets on all of them, but of course they’re not all created equal with regards to achievable relief or action (some Flys just seem easier to play than others). I second VJ’s clamp suggestion - It’s non-invasive and worth a shot with any lute.

[Voice Of Reason]

@Voice of Reason, your current bridge angle resembles what’s on most of my Flys. I’m using 10-46 sets on all of them, but of course they’re not all created equal with regards to achievable relief or action (some Flys just seem easier to play than others). I second VJ’s clamp suggestion - It’s non-invasive and worth a shot with any lute.

Thank you! I’ll keep an eye out on the neck. If it keeps moving, I’ll try VJ’s suggestion.

[Voice Of Reason]

My Fly is back after several months in the shop…my issues where are with tuning stability using the vibrato. Several members of this forum suggested the issue had to be the nut.

Well, the tech decided to fill the nut slots and recut them all to 0.020” (I use EB 10-52s). The result: it is more stable and bends do not throw it off. However, I cannot use the bar for that much longer (i.e. as in light/moderate occasional use needing to retune after each song).

I don’t know if it’s the spring that’s going (I use an 11). I would really like to use the bar on this guitar.

Anyhow, VJ, I’m lining up with others in buying a 10 spring! I can’t wait to go down in gauge to something like 9-46.

[vjmanzo]

Glad you're up and running again--sorry to hear that there are still some hiccups though.

One comment that, unfortunately, is not a solution or even a clearly defined phenomenon: the "feeling" thing you mentioned is, it seems, a factor related to tension; not tension on the instrument (that's a result of the tuning and the strings), but the amount of tension required to move the string down to the fret. We're doing some tests on this now, but it's slow-going to make any useful claims, but, in principle, if you have put locking nut on your Fly, it will "feel" tighter even though the overall tension will not change--what will change is the tension required to move the string down to the fret.

The are behind the nut is what Ken and others might call the "after-length"; actually, the orientation of the tuners matters in "feel": you want the higher strings to feel more slack and the bass string to feel tighter, so the lower string tuners are closer to the nut. Sounds like black magic right?

Are the strings properly stretched? if it's not the new strings that feel tight (which might take a while to stretch and feel normal again) your new nut may be cutting off the afterlength behind the nut. Really hard to know.

Also: are you absolutely certain that the nub in the three-ridge spring plate is actually touching the step stop when it’s down? If it’s not, then your guitar is effectively always floating.

[Voice Of Reason]

Thanks VJ:

No locking nut has been installed.

The strings are the same as before the nut job (= several months old, but the guitar has been kept in its case most of the time).

I will have another look at the nub/control cavity. As far as I know, the only changes were made to the nut. Perhaps the tech fiddled with the tension wheel, but other than that I doubt it.

Otherwise it does play beautifully.

[vjmanzo]

Happy to help! Keep us posted.

To clarify: yes, I knew that a locking nut wasn’t installed—I was saying that as an example of a certain type of clamping at that end of the guitar; nut slots that are too tight/something can do a similar type of clamping. Sounds like you’re saying that’s not what’s happening, so maybe it is the ol’ nub

[Voice Of Reason]

The issue has been partially resolved…One issue was that I keep my Fly in fixed (down mode only). Switching to floating greatly improved tuning stability with trem usage…go figure!

I suppose the extra tension in fixed mode is too much to handle for some reason. Perhaps the string gauge comes into play.

Still dreaming about that 10 spring…

[Voice Of Reason]

Having to keep the action high enough and still having some fret buzz got on my nerves. Hence, the Fly is back in the shop.

My techs (and I had) tried all we can we the truss rod and action, etc. to little avail.

My question:
Their concern with going forward with a more thorough fret dress (if it comes to this) is that it could create enough heat to cause issues with the fret glue. How much of a real concern do you believe this is (especially if you had it done before)?

Thanks for the input.

[mmmguitar]

@Voice Of Reason, I’ve leveled and dressed the frets on my ‘97 and ‘98 Deluxes and 2011 Supreme with no issues. I used a leveling beam with 400 grit (previous experiments with courser grits made subsequently polishing out the scratches a tedious process), a StewMac diamond crowning file (though any other should work), and rubberized ceramic polishing wheels in a dremel.

I was careful to make quick passes with the dremel; so as to avoid heating the frets too much. Never did one come loose - But I can say that any contact tools have with the CF board leaves permanent marks (I was trying to use up an old roll of painter’s tape to mask off the fingerboard, and a piece came unadhered and blew away due to the air venting from the dremel - Now I use fresh Frog tape).

Note that all my Flys had working truss rods; and I had adjusted them to have zero relief with the strings off (measured with a notched straight edge) before using a fret rocker to diagnose and mark which fret tops would need to be shaved down. I then tightened the truss once the strings were on and settled in, to again achieve the zero relief that the factory nut height had been set for. I don’t know what kind of relief on your Fly with the re-cut nut your shop is working with.

[Voice Of Reason]

Is it even possible to raise the saddles individually on a pre-refined Fly?

Otherwise, the radius would be set at 14” at the bridge (on a pre-refined Fly) and non-adjustable, correct?

Thanks to all. You are invaluable to other Fly owners (like me).

[mmmguitar]

Is it even possible to raise the saddles individually on a pre-refined Fly?

They're not designed for it, but they can be shimmed in the same manner as Floyd Rose saddles. The problem is that the piezo wire connection on the underside of the saddle is delicate, and there's no reason the fingerboard/fret curvature should be flatter than the 14" one set into the bridge (unless someone cut a flatter radius into the fret tops or replaced the board).

Otherwise, the radius would be set at 14” at the bridge (on a pre-refined Fly) and non-adjustable correct?

Correct. Ken designed the Fly bridge with a set, non-adjustable radius because he'd settled on the conical 10-13" radius fingerboard as the only one Parker Guitars would produce. I would personally prefer adjustable saddles, but it is what it is.

[Voice Of Reason]

Thank you again, sir.

Anyone with 52s here? What is your string action set to on the bass side?

I.e. All my issues are on the lower strings (mainly the Ab one as I’m tuning half a step down). My Fly is in the shop for what seems to be a full fret dress.